Baltimore teacher speaks the truth

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Horn6721, May 3, 2015.

  1. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    and got blasted by Dems and media.
    This guy,Dave Liceli, taught in Baltimore schools for 20 years. His opinion piece was in response to another writer opining that to end killing in Baltimore among other typical liberal excuses better schools were needed.
    from Washington Examiner link:
    "But it was his bold, insightful, no-punches-pulled letter to the editors of the July 15 edition of the Baltimore Sun that put Miceli on my hero's list. I'm reprinting that letter in its entirety.

    "Regarding your recent editorial, 'How to end the killing,' your last paragraph made me want to vomit. 'No doubt, Baltimore needs effective police and prosecutors, ample drug treatment, better schools, and more economic opportunities.'
    How dare you accuse, through implication or otherwise, that the need for 'better schools' is a reason there is so much killing. Had you defined the loosely used term, 'better schools,' perhaps I and probably others may not have been so nauseated.

    "I have taught in the Baltimore public school system for the past two decades. What we need is better students. We have many excellent teachers. I cannot count the number of students who have physically destroyed property in the schools.

    "They have trashed brand new computers, destroyed exit signs, set multiple fires, destroyed many, many lockers, stolen teachers' school supplies, written their filth on the tops of classroom desks, defecated in the bathrooms and stairwells, assaulted teachers (beyond constantly telling them to perform certain impossible acts upon themselves) and refused to do any homework or class work.

    "Need I go any further? I won't even bother addressing the other 'causes' you listed. Too inane. In summary, the problem seems to be a total disregard for life that exists not only in our crime-ridden city, but also in all of the major cities throughout the United States.

    "So, go blame other root causes, but please leave our city police, prosecutors and teachers out of the finger wagging."
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/a...-truth-about-schools-students/article/2533752

    this was written in July 2013
    It could have been written by any teacher in any urban school including Dallas, Houston etc.
    Baltimore is third highest in country on student spending so money is not the answer yet even today liberals are saying we must send more money.
    This teacher died early last year, sadly his message will be ignored as Dems will shout louder. Look no further than BO saying when speaking about Baltimore the Repubs are blocking his plans to save the children. :whiteflag:
     
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  2. Dionysus

    Dionysus Idoit Admin

    This usually starts with better parents.
     
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  3. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    The race baiters will always create excuses and blame towards anyone or anything except the real problem Dionysus points out.
     
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  4. chango

    chango 2,500+ Posts

    And the race denyers will always say race has nothing to do with it. Whatever "it" is. Two sides of the same coin.
     
  5. Larry T Spider

    Larry T Spider 100+ Posts

    He is clearly right, but his message will be lost because there is no clear solution. We love to blame people that aren't at fault, but that's because its so hard to find realistic solutions. You can't make people be responsible.
     
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  6. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    Your insistence on finding a simple answer ignores the self-perpetuating cycle at the root of the problem. Yes, the problem is the students. And yes, that starts to large degree with their parents. However, both the students and their parents are what they are in large part because of an inferior education. If we do nothing to break the cycle, the current students will be worse parents than their own parents are, and the next generation of children will continue the downward spiral.

    Identifying the parents as the root of the problem and complaining about the fact that the parents aren't solving it could well be both fair and accurate. But doing so does nothing to solve the problem. Instead, it divides our society and makes the problem worse.
     
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  7. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Amor Fati

    I can't disagree with this, but it seems to me that education — however we choose to define that — is a “pull” dynamic, not a “push.” One has to value education and want it and pursue it and understand that it is worth sacrifice and work to obtain and better oneself.
    How do you break the cycle? Can you do that through coercion or compulsion or mandates of some kind? Does the alcoholic or drug abuser get clean because someone “breaks the cycle” for them or because they choose to take responsibility for their life and make the difficult changes?

    I don’t know the answer but I agree that it is not a simple dynamic.
     
  8. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    My daughter used to teach at an inner city school. She taught there for 5 years before fleeing to a suburban school, which has its problems, but typically isn't dangerous to the teacher. A significant portion of the kids at the inner city school were being raised by single, welfare moms. That school had physical assaults on teachers, a teacher's car stolen by a student, kids who had a parent murdered, and on and on.

    The problem can't be fixed by throwing money at it. Obama blamed Congress for not giving him more money to "fix" the inner city after the Baltimore riots. Yet, he squandered almost half a trillion of the stimulus on government giveaways to no avail.

    These kids need to be taught old school values like the Boomers were taught, instead of living the Thug life and it's all about "me". That takes parenting and that's why we're in trouble.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    "However, both the students and their parents are what they are in large part because of an inferior education."
    What exactly was "inferior" about the education?
     
  10. Larry T Spider

    Larry T Spider 100+ Posts

    Like anything, education is what you make of it. It seems like 90% of the political conversation about education is about money or firing bad teachers. Those are somewhat worthy conversations but the bottom line is that the students that show up and work hard have every opportunity to do well. In almost every case where I have seen the student not really have a fair opportunity it has been caused by an event or life circumstance outside of school or other student behavior inside the school. I have lost all hope that we will ever talk about the real issues facing schools and kids. It's too easy to pick out worthless political talking points that your uneducated base already agrees with and just preach to the choir.
     
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  11. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    LarryT
    You are uniquely qualified to speak on this.I suspect the issues facing the schools stem from loss of the family unit and loss of respect for teachers.I suspect the issues facing students also stem in part from the absence of family and the sense of entitlement that perhaps is well meaning but ends up eating away drive and self worth. Every time someone in media or on media says we aren't doing enough FOR these students it fuels the anger.
    I would like to hear how you think the "real issues" can be solved or at least a starting point.
     
  12. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 2,500+ Posts

    This issue is the one we need to solve.
    I vote that the first step should be to drop time spent learning to diagram sentences. :whiteflag:

    In addition to the basics of math, english, history, and science, we could mix in a little practical knowledge about financial transactions (business and accounting).
    The cultural problem of single mothers raising kids is difficult to solve. How do you teach daddy to be a father if he's never had one? It would be nice if the current hatred of cops were directed instead at irresponsible baby daddies and baby mammas. Maybe the attitude of acceptance/indifference should be changed to embarrassment and scorn like it used to be.
     
  13. chango

    chango 2,500+ Posts

    What about paying students directly for attendance, behavior, and grades? I thought I read they had at least tested this idea in some cities.

    Before anyone freaks out - I'm talking about diverting from what is already being wasted in Federal spending on education. Also talking about students that you can't reach any other way.

    We are going to wind up making citizens out of these folks, or paying $30K per year, per person to house them in prisons.
     
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  14. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 2,500+ Posts

    I like it Chango. This would teach them early on about consequences for your actions.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Chango
    I sorta understand your reasoning and maybe that would jump start them . Do you pay all students everywhere? What criteria would you use? Do you not think ALL students would want this?
    Plus do NOT for one moment think school districts would stand for loss of their money. This would just mean more money thrown at it. more of OUR money.
    What about school choice?

    I agree with Larry T when he said,"the bottom line is that the students that show up and work hard have every opportunity to do well"
    which is why I don't agree that Baltimore or Dallas is providing an " inferior" education.
     
  16. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    Who is exactly a race denier in this situation or in any of these posts? Racism exists and will likely exist for the rest of human existence on this planet. It has always existed and it is prevalent among all races against other races. If you do not believe that then I guess you are a race "denier." Yes, some have it worse than others, but seems only an excuse for larger problems in some communities.

    On a larger front, the education system will only be as good as the parents who support it. As was stated in an earlier post, Baltimore is among the highest as far as money spent per student in the nation. I cannot speak to the quality of their teachers, but I bet they are easy scapegoats like they are in other underperforming districts. However, the truth is that teachers cannot force students to study, do their homework or behave inside or outside school. Only the parent(s) can do that.
     
  17. Larry T Spider

    Larry T Spider 100+ Posts

    "On a larger front, the education system will only be as good as the parents who support it."

    /thread
     
  18. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Baltimore, like many Dem cities, is on their 3rd or 4th generation of a large populace on welfare.And we have heard the Baltimore city leaders, their state legislators and their federal legislators call for more money and more " opportunity" .
    How many of those thugs who broke into stores and stole, who threw concrete bricks, who burned police cars and businesses that provided goods services and jobs, how many of the thugs were serious about school or had ever applied for a job ?
    Now these same thugs hear their leaders say it is not their fault, that more needs to be given to them.
    The single mother who smacked her son at least cares enough to try. Yes she had 6 kids and is living on entitlements but she is trying to make sure her son stays in school and does better. If we could clone her attitude maybe that could start a break in the cycle
     
  19. BevoBeef

    BevoBeef 250+ Posts

    Yes, I think education and parenting are necessary ingredients to the solution of whatever problem is being discussed in this thread. However, I think one key ingredient to be recognized is the unemployment levels in the city core areas that contribute to the violence and are at the edge of the cliff where the youth fall into the abyss of violence. If you agree with that, then there has to be a concerted effort to give the youth an education by which they can successfully make a living. Perhaps money spent on vocationally oriented training is better spent than trying to get higher test scores. If we solve the problem of better education of the children, it will still mean nothing if they cannot get a job to make money to survive and increase their standard of living. Perhaps more needs to be focused on jobs and unemployment numbers in certain geographic areas. Politicians give this lip service, but actually nothing substantive is being done in order to directly solve the problem.

    I am thinking about all the young people who have gone into big debt financing their college courses, but cannot get the type of job to pay back those large loans. I am thinking about the teachers and social workers who have earned a college degree but find themselves in a situation where they will never pay off that $50-100 thousand dollars of debt that will be a constant drag on their lives. These college oriented people have solved the education problem, but how has that added to their standard of living if they cannot get a job paying enough to pay off that loan in a meaningful period.
     
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    Last edited: May 4, 2015
  20. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Vocational training makes sense BUT would some cry racism if inner city schools put effort in teaching vocations when suburb schools are focusing on college prep?
    And unless the actions of the students change they wouldn't learn a trade anymore than they are learning math etc now.

    BTW there are semi low skilled jobs begging for people in other areas of the country.With 34% unemployment among black men 20-24 in Baltimore maybe some of them should consider moving to where the jobs are.
    Why go to all that trouble when you can live off the taxpayer with an acceptable lifestyle?
     
  21. zork

    zork 2,500+ Posts

  22. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    33,742 jobs listed on Indeed within 25 miles of Baltimore. They are given the opportunity of an education. The current mayor brags about her high school education, then how she proceeded to work her way through law school so she could go back and be a political leader in Baltimore.

    They also offer vocational tracks. Maybe they should just teach them to be accountable for their own actions and success?
     
  23. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Ah it is much easier to ignore facts and blame Republicans.
     
  24. chango

    chango 2,500+ Posts

    I agree this is how it SHOULD be. But too many are not, and they aren't going anywhere, so I say we find new solutions. Not more money, just better allocation of what is already being spent. It is a huge problem that people from all political views need to work together to solve. If we do nothing we all pay for them one way or another (welfare, prison ...)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Chango
    I agree that what has been tried and all the billions spent has not worked.
    Maybe now we need to tell them THEY are accountable.
    Does anyone think they do not know right from wrong?
    Maybe it is time to say to those who have learned how to game the system even though they are able bodied you have 2 months to get a job, any job. At the end of 2 months cut off all their welfare except maybe medical.
     
  26. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life Good Bye To All The Rest!

    There is no "fix" for a problem that thinks it's not the problem.
     
  27. Dobeyville

    Dobeyville < 25 Posts

    How do you hold them accountable? That's the bottom line. You cannot force them to learn. Fail them? Then what? They have to have a desire to learn, and it does not look like there is much of that. The only desire they seem to have is more benefits from the government, not all of them mind you, but enough of them to cause perpetual havoc in the communities they live in. I do not have a solution.
     
  28. Larry T Spider

    Larry T Spider 100+ Posts

    Maybe some of the high schoolers have the desire for more government benefits but I would guess that the majority of them haven't thought that far ahead. The middle schoolers and elementary school kids certainly don't think that way. The problem is that most of the kids that are the real problems in school literally just cant do what is being asked of them. They are usually very far behind academically and lack emotional control due to their home lives. I don't have a solution for most of them. We can offer vocational programs for the ones that are behind academically or just aren't interested in college but that doesn't help the ones that are a train wreck behaviorally. You have to realize that many of these kids were raised by the streets, are mentally unstable, and are hormonal to top it off. Their brain chemistry is so far out of whack its hard to believe. We are asking teachers to get test scores to keep their jobs while trying to keep these other kids from going off. It's just not realistic. We can find a few people that can do it remarkably well, but its not something that the average college educated person can be trained do. The ones that can do it usually can't keep it up for more than a few years. We need to find a way to make this whole process more realistic for the teachers and the vast majority of students that show up each day and aren't disruptive. I cant come up with any solutions that don't look a whole lot like giving up on some kids from really tough backgrounds that need an education more than anything.
     
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  29. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Vol, great point.
    The liberals and most of media seem to only think the problem is WE aren't doing enough for them.

    Dobey,-
    Yea flunking them isn't the answer which is why I would start with the over 18 y o and if they are able bodied I would give them 2 months to find a job and then cut off their benefits, except for medical care. As has been pointed out there are jobs, low skill jobs that involve labor.
    right now why should they take those jobs when they can live a pretty good life off the rest of us.
    The sad thing is their great great etc grandparents who migrated to Places like Baltimore Detroit etc took low skill labor jobs and in most cases worked their way up. Not too proud to do hard work.
    So they start at a burger place , if they show up for every shift, work hard they will get promoted to shift supervisor and from there maybe assistant mgr etc.
    They could have taken a job stocking the shelves at CVS but they destroyed that place.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2015
  30. zork

    zork 2,500+ Posts

    I have identified an alternative school in my area, for kids who get separated from the normal school in their district for whatever reason, to use as an emotional example for my children to help them understand there are consequences for their decisions.(one such example of many to help them learn how society treats those that misbehave besides just jail, etc) We talk about making good decisions. We talk about the consequences of bad decisions now vs later when it will really count in real life outside of elementary school.

    We discuss the thought processes behind good decisions that we as their parents are helping them make now and that they will need to use to implement their own decisions when we are not with them at school and later in life. It is a never ending cycle to keep them focused on what is right, not to mention not running out the door of a store, or wherever, into an unsuspecting car driving in the parking lot.

    We correlate bad examples from other people into their lives so they can learn to not be that person. Don't be the person who throws whole grapes into their mouth and chokes. "Put the grape on your teeth and bite it, one at a time". etc etc etc

    Parenting is not easy but is very rewarding. I recommend it for most even if you don't like being around the children of others. Your children bring a bond with them that is hard to describe to those that don't have them. Too bad many lose that bond and allow theirs to fall through the cracks. I pray mine never will.
     

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