The human face of the illegal alien

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Crockett, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro/20150801-four-days-of-migrant-raids-rattle-corsicana.ece

    ICE, without request from local officials, has been rounding up and deporting illegal aliens for felonies and serious misdemeanors like DWI and domestic violence.
    Those deported were human beings and there is grief in their loss.
    Frankly, I'm OK with it.
    But if we try to deport everyone who lacks documents, the streets will run with tears. I know people who say they want all illegal alients deported, but who love their hispanic owned lawn service. They insist the folks with the lawn service are such nice people, they must surely have legal papers. Not sure, but I don't think "landscaper" is a protected class where immigrants can cut to the front of the line for legal status.
     
  2. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    It's very sad, and I do feel for the families of people who get deported. To a lot of people, it's just some random Mexican getting kicked out of the country he had no right to enter in the first place. However, to someone else, he's a father or a son or a husband, who's gone perhaps forever. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be deported, especially if he committed a felony or serious misdemeanor like DWI. However, it does mean that we should empathize with his family's pain.

    We need a reform package that deals with those in the country illegal. Bush pitched a plan that I think is pretty fair. It grants illegal immigrants who are otherwise law-abiding a path to legal status but not a special path citizenship. Obviously Democrats aren't going to like that, because it denies or at least delays the political benefit they've expended so much political capital to reap.

    (Even though pundits and media types often claim he doesn't give them a "pathway to citizenship," that's false. They can still get citizenship, but they have to follow the protocol that someone who didn't come illegally would have to follow. They don't' get a special path. Most fair-minded people aren't going to have a problem with that.)
     
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  3. Larry T Spider

    Larry T Spider 100+ Posts

    For the most part, I have given up on discussing immigration and deportation issues due to texas republicans. If a state this red won't take it seriously because they are all bought and paid for by business interests, then I'll just give up on the issue. Luckily, I like Hispanic people, enjoy working with their kids, and will have tons of job security :)
     
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  4. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    You're one of these guys who should probably be a national Republican but a Texas independent or maybe a moderate Democrat. You seem to generally favor the national GOP's stated fiscal priorities, but based on reading your posts over the years, I can't think of any area where you have a significant amount in common with the Texas GOP.
     
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  5. Larry T Spider

    Larry T Spider 100+ Posts

    You hit the nail on the head. I usually vote third party in texas unless I like the dem. On the national level I vote republican 95% of the time.
     
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  6. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Deez: I heard Ben Carson coming forward with a proposal much like what Jeb Bush has suggested. Makes sense to me. I don't think that will satisfy the "deport them all" crowd. I wonder if they understand lack of legal status makes it easy to exploit the undocumented, putting them in circumstance where they can be ripped off by unscrupulous employers who skip out without paying them or put them in dangerous work conditions, but offer no help when they are hurt or injured.
     
  7. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    It won't, which is what makes this issue so tough. If you come out in favor of something short of deportation, you'll attract the "amnesty" label.

    Fundamentally, they don't care about the plight of the illegal alien at all. The "he shouldn't have been in the country in the first place" mantra is going to trump pretty much everything. Accordingly, they're going to have very little concern for what an employer does to him. If you bring up the social and governmental costs (such as hospitals or public agencies being on the hook for big write-offs), they'll blame the illegal alien far more often than they'll blame the employer.
     
  8. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    The problem is neither constituency really wants illegal immigration to stop. One side likes future voters and the other likes cheap labor. Both are hypocritical and immoral.

    If the government wanted it to stop, they simply need to demagnetize the situation:

    1) Put employers in prison and fine them if they knowingly hire illegal immigrants. Punishment is exponentially worse if they are paying below market wages or violating other wage and labor laws.

    2) Eliminate automatic citizenship for kids of foreign illegal immigrants just because they were born in the United States.

    3) Enforce current laws.

    I believe following those three steps would result in mass exodus of illegals back to their home country.
     
  9. majorwhiteapples

    majorwhiteapples 5,000+ Posts

    Put employers in prison? That is the stupidest statement.........do you really think the illegal alien brings their Mexico papers in to prove identity? No, there is a whole racket, cartel out there providing stolen identities. A small business owner uses a Federal government system called EVerify, the employer provides that information to the Feds and in about 6 months the Federal government gets back to the employer as to whether it is a legal id or not. If the employer makes a decision on their own that it is false ID they will get sued by a host of ACLU lawyers just chomping at the bit to do it......

    Going after employers is insane and the most ridiculous solution that I have ever heard. Learn what is going on in the environment.......the only people making less than minimum wage are when you pick someone up at Home Depot or you hire someone you know's housekeeper to be your housekeeper.......what do you do about that labor force?
     
  10. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    If an employer uses e-verify and the Feds say the person is legal, then the employer has no liability. If, however, he picks them up at Home Depot for his construction site, then he is culpable.

    If someone cannot supply the needed documents for employment, an employer has no obligation to hire them. Like I said earlier, some simply want the cheap labor.
     
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  11. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    You could fertilize the field at DKR with Major's post. First, e-verify is voluntary for the vast majority of employers, and the vast majority of them don't use it.

    Second, the fake ID racket is real, but that's only going to make a difference for employers who withhold taxes and report the illegals' income. If the illegal is going to work a hotel, a fast food place, etc., they'll have the fake ID. However, if they're getting paid in cash or personal check (common for small construction subcontractors or landscapers), they're not going to need the fake ID. Let's put it this way. I represented hundreds of illegals over the years. Very few had fake IDs. They didn't need them.

    Third, if the ID is blatantly fake (and many of them are), the employer doesn't have to accept it. What he can't do hold "foreign" applicants to a higher standard than domestic applicants or require additional documents from what is required by law. For example, if the employee brings in a real document that he's permitted by law to use, you can't require him to bring in more just because you're suspicious.

    And just overall, this idea that illegal immigrants are pushing employers around and that employers are groveling in fear of them is absolutely laughable. That's like suggesting that Mike Tyson grovels in fear of a handcuffed and blindfolded Woody Allen. Most illegal immigrants are scared shitless of getting reported to ICE or losing their jobs. The employers have all the leverage on them.
     
  12. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    E-Verify takes 6 months? Based on what I've read the website/API responds within 3-5 seconds. I work in HR Systems and we generally allow for 24hr turnaround as an SLA.

    The challenge is that some employers knowingly take false/forged documents. Typically, the illegal immigrants are using another person's SSN, name. Employers might be leveraging e-verify but if they knowingly process someone with apparent forged documents and they pass they have plausible deniability. My father works for a cabinet manufacturer in Dallas with a huge plant floor nearly 100% staffed by Spanish speaking individuals. ICE stops by 2-3 times/year. The day before they arrive ~33% of the floor workers don't show up for work. This happens like clockwork. So, someone is tipping them off. My father is in accounting but he tells me somehow these floor workers are getting advance notice that ICE will be there. The disappeared workers generally are gone for 3-6 months then show back up with a different SSN/Name that passes the E-Verify process and the company happily accepts them back.

    Clearly the company is knowingly employing people with questionable immigration status. They appear to be colluding with the illegal immigrants to avoid getting caught. It's in the employers best interest to play the game and employ these "documented" workers.
     
  13. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Small businesses may not use it but it's the standard for large businesses. It's a requirement for any federal contractors. That list goes pretty deep. For example, Starbucks is a "federal contractor" because they sell coffee to some federal government entity.
     
  14. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Yes, this true. However, I wonder what percentage of illegal immigrants work for large businesses. A heck of a lot of them work in construction, landscaping, and small enterprises. Also, enforcement is lax even when it's required. I've represented guys who worked on projects at UT, on Austin highways, etc. One guy had worked for the City of Austin for 25 years.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  15. HornHuskerDad

    HornHuskerDad 5,000+ Posts

    An excellent idea. It would eliminate the concept of the "anchor baby" from our vocabulary. I assume this would require an Constitutional Amendment? Perhaps to define citizenship for "any person born in the U.S.A., provided the mother was in the country legally at time of birth" - would that work?
     
  16. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    That's the challenge. The 14th Amendment has been a colossal juggernaut to impose liberal policy in the US on countless fronts, and this is just one area. We'd have to amend that to truly remove birthright citizenship from the law. Congress would never pass such an amendment, and even if it did, no where near enough states would ratify it.
     
  17. Larry T Spider

    Larry T Spider 100+ Posts

    Fertilizing turf seems like a terrible idea. :)
     
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  18. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    No more terrible than his ideas and views on illegal immigration.
     
  19. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    I agree. My innovative offensive idea -- three yards and a cloud of tiny rubber pellets -- would lose its appeal.
     
  20. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    MrD
    You represented illegals who work directly for any Gov't project? How did they do that?
    It had to be some form of fraud, fake papers? fake SS#? Stolen ID?
    I would like to see ANY organization punished for employing illegals including a gov't org. ven if the docs the illegal presented looked real.
    Not sure exactly how you could punish one since a fine would only be our tax dollars
    But the negative publicity would help. And it might make more people use EVerify which could make EV more reliable and useful.
     
  21. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Well, let's be specific. There were two classes of clients that would probably interest you. I represented illegal immigrants who worked on government construction projects, but they didn't work for the government or even for the company that directly contracted with the government. They worked for subcontractors who had been retained by the company that contracted with the government or even "subs of subs." None of these guys had fake papers, IDs, or anything like that. They didn't need them. Their boss paid them in cash or personal check, didn't report their earnings, etc.

    The other class was guys who worked directly for the City of Austin. There were only two of these guys. One started illegal but gained his residency during the Reagan-era amnesty. The other never got his residency and worked illegally for the City for 25 years. He had a fake SS card, and the city never checked his status. He eventually moved back to Mexico to be with his ill parents.

    They're not going to use E-Verify. Liberal cities don't want to know their workers' immigration status. The government contractors will say that they do use E-Verify, and they might use it for their own workers. However, they contract with other businesses who rely heavily on illegal immigrants, and they're not going to use it. Hell, a lot of the time, those subs are just a Mexican dude who can speak some English and owns an old work van and some hammers.
     
  22. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    MrD
    Thank you for that explanation. That is what I thought, No gov't agency knowingly hired an illegal, although it won't be long before they do.
    And the city's cover, just like GC's who work gov't contracts. is they relied on their subcontractor to verify the legality of their employees.
    Just once or 5 or 6 times I would like to see an employer and or a city called on it. Ignorance being no excuse. If a few places like a city were called on it and a few companies' principals sent to jail Maybe some of this would stop,

    We need to change visa laws to allow vetting of this class of worker. This would let us know who is here and bring them into the open.
    well and to perhaps move some of the able bodied welfare recipients to this type of work.Who did this work 35-40 years ago before we created a liveable life solely on welfare? Many people would rather live the welfare life than work hard( and construction is HARD work)
     
  23. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Just to make sure it's clear, the two guys I specifically mentioned did work directly for the City of Austin. There was no subcontractor involved. If the City had wanted to know, they could have easily verified those guys' status. They were at best willfully ignorant.
     
  24. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Well it is Austin after all.
    I wonder if the fake Docs they used were from other living people or from dead people.
    Either way it is hard to believe the SSNs didn't alert the city.
     
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