What Flag Do We Ban Now ...

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Clean, Aug 27, 2015.

  1. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    ... that a gay, black, liberal democrat, Vester Lee Flanagan, killed two white people and seriously wounded a third in a carefully planned, racially motivated hate crime. He reportedly had a LGBT rainbow flag in his apartment, let's ban that one.

    Vester Lee was a poster child for the Obama Administration. A member of the Black Lives Matter movement, as well as the gay rights movement. He was once reprimanded for wearing an Obama badge on air. He probably started to believe all the Obama propaganda that America is the most racist country on the planet. He came to believe that his firing was because, as a double minority, he was a victim of prejudice, not that he sucked as a TV personality.

    Of course Obama, Hillary, and Josh Earnest immediately blamed gun control. Obama said that the number of people who die from gun-related incidents dwarfs deaths from terrorism. Never let a tragedy go to waste, you know.

    It will be interesting to see if Vester Lee is painted as a victim by the left leaning media or just another soulless, mass murderer. I'll bet this story disappears quicker than a classified email off Hillary's server.
     
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  2. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Who the hell is for "banning" flags, Conferate or rainbow? A person with anger issues and an abusive, confrontational attitude took a firearm, easily obtained in this country, and killed a couple of people, then himself. I know by heart the NRA response. Arm yourselves cause the only way to stop the mayhem is to be ready, able and willing to shoot first. Pay no attention to the fact that the state with the loosest gun regulation and poorest cooperation and on federal background checks, Louisiana, is also first in per capita homicides. Really the only answer is vigilance bordering on paranoia and more weapons. Lets stop all this namby pamby librul crap about getting to the root causes of anger and violence and focus all energy simply of having good guys ready to do violence more effectively. Clean, is there any other reasonable answer?
     
  3. IvanDiabloHorn

    IvanDiabloHorn 1,000+ Posts

    I think this black on white hate crime should be used to ban Kwanza from all public schools. Since Kwanza is the made up holiday by the racist Black Panthers, what better way for everyone to come together and use the black on white hate crime to reject the Black panther hate group. No, we don't really care what goes on private property, but certainly we can eliminate black hate from our public schools.

    Agree on banning the rainbow flag. What a terrible symbol of gay on straight hate crimes.
     
  4. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Clean
    You posted, "It will be interesting to see if Vester Lee is painted as a victim by the left leaning media"

    Right on cue Sally Kohn (CNN) tweeted: He was "mentally unstable and appears to have acted out of sense of victimization I have no reason to believe not justified."

    She won't be the last. Other " experts" have suggested the tv station that fired him should have " kept in touch" and made sure he was all right.:whiteflag:
     
  5. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    I have no idea who Sally Kohn is but context is important.



    That was a response to a question on whether she felt the murders were justified.
     
  6. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Husker
    Exactly Kohn, lefty lesbian hater, tweeted she had no reason to not think the lefty black gay murderer's" victimization" which led to him killing was justified.
    WHAT victimization could justify murdering 2 innocent people?
     
  7. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    I think you are misunderstanding. She's saying she has no reason to think he wasn't discriminated against but that didn't justify the murders. Here is her twitter feed: https://twitter.com/sallykohn

    I've learned over my years that those in the minority tend to be more sensitive to discrimination whether intended or not. Rarely have I been in the minority thus can't speak to the "default to discrimination" stance.

    Then again, the knee jerk reaction to assume he wasn't discriminated against is also perplexing to me. I personally don't have enough data to form an opinion. Regardless, nothing could justify these killings to me, or Susan Kohn per her own words.
     
  8. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    SH, when a person guns down two people who pose no direct threat to him, it's pretty natural to assume the murderer is the a**hole.
     
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  9. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    No one is saying Kohn outright said the murders were justified
    But Kohn said she thinks he acted( killed) out of a sense of " victimization" which is exactly what Clean predicted.
    She further stated she had no reason to think he hadn't been a victim. then again she had no reason to think he had.

    Saying a murderer acted out of justified victimization is really stretching it to try to create some pity? empathy? for the murderer.
     
  10. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    I can join you in jumping to the conclusion this guy was an ******* and worse. I have no idea whether he was actually discriminated against or not. That doesn't matter though in determining these murders weren't justified.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Husker
    We agree on that.
     
  12. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Look at the full conversation. She's not defending this dude as much as defending the LGBT and Black communities. She states exactly that in one post. In fact, she directly addresses Clean's initial "ban the LGBT flag" line of thinking. Is it possible to say that someone was discriminated against yet still fully accountable for their actions? That's explicitly what she is saying. The inference by Clean is that by stating his circumstance or that he was a victim you are absolving him of responsibility. She explicitly states what he did was not justified thus not absolved from the accountability of his actions.
     
  13. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Husker
    She and others are making the murderer a Victim.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Hollandtx

    Hollandtx 250+ Posts

    I do feel that in an interview I saw on CNN that they were kind of interrogating the shooter's ex-employer.
    They continued to press for his recollection of any type of bullying, racist or homophobic statements. Over and over...the man finally said, "look, he worked here a long time ago. I can't remember every detail." It did appear the media was trying as hard as possible to provide a reason or excuse for the shootings, especially the race angle.
    I don't recall this response to other shootings. Personally, I wish for all but minimal coverage of the victims to stop.
    This super-coverage is exactly what this monster craved. The way he tweeted, faxed memos, and ensured it would all play out live makes me sick. He was desperate that he leave a big mark.

    As far as the media tippy-toeing around the fact that he stated that he bought the gun 2 days after the church shootings, supposedly etched the initials of the dead black church goers on his bullets, etc., that disturbs me as well. This was a hate crime against white people, plain and simple.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  15. Htown77

    Htown77 5,000+ Posts

    The white house decided to focus on gun control after this. After charleston the focus was the confederate flag. The real lesson (which I doubt america learned) is that after a shooting, the correct answer is not to go after some political beliefs or historical imagery associated with the shooter. America has had too many mass shootings and killings from methods other than shootings. Now, we are at the point where just about every part of the political spectrum has had one. It's time to realize that the common thread is not political beliefs or historical imagery. Assaulting those does nothing positive. It was absolutely wrong for the media and white house to capitalize on the charleston shooting and use it as an excuse to go after historical imagery they disliked. The difference in media coverage and white house response between this shooting and charleston only seeks to further divide this country. Compare the use of the word "hate crime" in the stories of Charleston and this. Some news outlets have said this virginia shooting was not a hate crime because the shooter was "delusional." If you read the charleston shooter's manifesto... that sicko was clearly delusional. In fact..... I would bet almost all, if not all, mass killers are at least somewhat delusional.

    I said in another thread, I do not know what the answer is. I do not know if there is a mental health solution. I do not know if there is a gun control solution. Maybe there is a different solution. Maybe there is not a solution, though I think we should try an find one! WHAT I DO KNOW, is that using shootings as an excuse to attack historical imagery or as political attacks on groups IS NOT THE SOLUTION! That tactic only divides this country, no matter the target group.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 27, 2015
  16. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    SH, if you don't know who Sally Kohn is, she's not a thoughtful liberal who's worthy of your respect. She's a shrill, kook - a reverse Michele Bachmann. Horn6721 has a point. Obviously, Kohn didn't say the killings were justified. She's smart enough not to say something that indefensible. However, she's deploying a rhetorical tactic that's far more passive and therefore easier to backpedal from if necessary (which it was) but communicates a similar albeit less inflammatory message. She's raising a "mitigating factor" - what a criminal defense lawyer does when his client is obviously guilty and wants to convince a jury not to punish him too harshly.

    Kohn brought up his sense of victimization and suggests that such sense was justified, meaning he probably really was a victim of race and sexual orientation discrimination. By doing that, she does three things. First, she takes the focus off of and redirects empathy away from the shooting victims and toward the perpetrator. Second, she directs moral condemnation away from Flanagan and toward unnamed white, straight people who allegedly victimized him. Finally, by implication she suggests that Flanagan was provoked to commit the murders. It's not the same as full-blown justification, but it's pretty bad. If a political commentator did the same thing about Dylan Roof (and someone could concoct such a narrative if he tried to), it would destroy his career.
     
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  17. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Jacquielynn Floyd, a Dallas Morning News columnist visited with some psychologists and her finding is that anger more than mental illness is the problem. Some of these madmen are clearly insane. But the real danger of mass shootings come when angry folks are armed.
    http://www.dallasnews.com/news/colu...ed-and-angry-the-formula-for-gun-violence.ece

    Effective gun control would keep guns out of the hands of really angry people who have demonstrated anger through repeated assaults, and angry people who abuse drugs.
     
  18. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    The government would have to hire the Long Island Medium to determine who the "really angry" people are, because I'm fairly certain they're going to disguise their mental state while applying to own a gun. And, I assume the current system should detect people with "repeated assaults".

    We should go the other way, every law abiding (no criminal record), licensed, citizen (required) of legal age should be able to carry a gun everywhere they go. Perhaps if the camera man had been armed, he could have saved his own life. I know that sounds pretty radical and it's a sad commentary on where our society is today, but that's where we are. Deal with it.
     
  19. Horns11

    Horns11 10,000+ Posts

    No, there would just be a dead cameraman on the ground with a holstered gun. He was in the middle of doing his job, not serving as a lookout.

    For every YouTube clip of "this man's a hero because he pulled out his concealed weapon and saved the day at a convenience store holdup," my guess is that there's 50 instances in which armed people couldn't do jack to stop gun violence from occurring.
     
  20. n64ra

    n64ra 1,000+ Posts

    You could look at it the other way. Maybe it's time to bring back the banned Confederate Battle flag.
     
  21. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Darn MrD
    Even when I disagree with you I read your posts and think, well that made some sense. Sense I had not considered and begrudgingly admit makes sense.
    In your post explaining what Kohn and now others have done to make the killer's victimization plight seem sympathetic you broke it down and exposed how it was done.
    Kohn would have made a good lawyer for the Boston Bomber.

    I know this is done by all ideologists and maybe it only seems more pathetic because of cold blooded murders.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  22. chango

    chango 2,500+ Posts

    This type of thread is why nothing has been done, or will be done about this problem. As a society we are too stupid to focus on an issue for more than 5 minutes, or try to come together on any type of real solution.
    The only thing the General can think of is "let me connect this tragedy to banning flags!"
     
  23. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    I think it is more like - since the last tragedy resulted in nothing more meaningful than a dumb-assed, wrongheaded flag ban, which one do we ban now that the race of the killer and killed is reversed?

    Also, since the last tragedy generated humongous media attention (as well as the flag ban movement), why didn't this one generate the same? Everybody knows it is because the race of the killer and killed is reversed, but nobody on the left is willing to admit it.
     
  24. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    If the rainbow flag had been flying over the Virginia State Capitol or a monument on the capital grounds that the victims families had to drive by while state and national flags were at half staff, there might have been a protest.

    Since there is a GREAT AMOUNT of misunderstandng on this thread, the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia has NOT BEEN BANNED. It is still legal to fly one, tack it up in your garage, make bikini underwear from it or hire Chinese contractors to make more. Significant numbers of people are offended by that Confederate symbol, perhaps for the same reason the KKK and white supremacists seem to really like it, and it has disappeared from numerous public displays and store shelves. But the flag has been selling like crazy and I suspect it is being displayed in greater numbers than any time since Eisenhower enforced integration of public schools. Again, I have Good news Sangre and Clean: the Rebel symbol you so adore has not been banned. Have a great day!
     
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  25. Hollandtx

    Hollandtx 250+ Posts

    I don't care about flags, it bothers me greatly that this shooting has been spinned almost entirely as workplace violence.
    20/20 did an entire hour on the shooting and barely mentioned the racist angle.
    Now we have Black Lives Matter people ruining a state fair, chanting, "Fry the pigs, make pigs in a blanket", a deputy sheriff shot in the head...where is the outcry?
    I am sad for out future.
     
  26. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    Crockett, it is telling that your best argument is to attack the messenger. For the record, I couldn't give two shits about the rebel flag. It is the useless engagement in symbolic BS as a response to tragedy that makes me shake my head.

    And then for the national media to follow up with amazing linguistic contortions (Workplace violence? Really?) to avoid talking about a similar tragedy in equal terms? How can you defend that?
     
  27. accuratehorn

    accuratehorn 10,000+ Posts

    TV news is brutal about running off on-air personalities for the latest pretty/handsome face right out of college. When the fired employee is a minority, they do tend to believe the reason is because of race. But this guy apparently had anger issues in several incidents over the years. Don't know if he had any legitimate beefs due to race, but it didn't sound that way at this point.
     
  28. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    I don't think anybody in America doesn't know the killer was a black gay man. I have no sympathy for him and I guess in the end he had no sympathy for himself ... he offed himself rather than go to trial. Even he knew he was a horrible jerk. If he thought the killings were justified, even in the convoluted thinking of a madman, he would have gone to trial to get the "truth" out there. I guess if the idea is we need to be more angry and fearful of the gay ... Jeez we're angry and fearful enough already.
     
  29. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    Exactly, that was the only point in starting this thread. That and because I knew that the libs wouldn't like being poked with their own stick.
     
  30. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Is the rainbow flag flying over official government buildings anywhere today? I'm certainly not in favor. Again, I have not watched all the media and mostly I do mainstream media like the networks and NPR and the Dallas Morning News. I've seen enough to despise the killer and be pretty certain that every time he was fired it was justified by a combination of anger control/competence issues.

    In my circles there has been a great outcry of sympathy for his victims, as well as for the law enforcement agents so tragically killed.
     

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