Another act of Christian terrorism...

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by NJlonghorn, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    ... so where is the outpouring of condemnation from Christian leaders. ;)
     
  2. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Politically moderate Christians, like politically moderate Muslims, are a lot less interesting than the extremists. Neither group is silent or invisible, just not dramatic enough to get on TV.
     
  3. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Didnt this guy self-identify as a woman?
    And list herself as unaffiliated politically?
    So, why do you think this transgendered person is Christian?
    Strictly going by percentages of the general population, wouldnt it be most likely that Dear is an agnostic/atheist/liberal?


    [​IMG]


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    Last edited: Nov 30, 2015
  4. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Should you really have to classify as a moderate to condemn murder? Politically conservative Christians (and frankly, fair minded people of all stripes) should be able to do so without hesitation.
     
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  5. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    Police say he spoke about "baby parts" and expressed anti-abortion views in his interrogation. Neighbors say he handed out anti-Obama flyers calling for impeachment. http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting/

    His cabin in the woods has a cross on the side of it:

    [​IMG]

    Yeah, he's an atheistic liberal. :rolleyes1:

    There is no word on why the voter registration card shows him as female, but the idea that this makes him transgender is (a) wildly speculative and (b) irrelevant to whether he is a Christian terrorist.
     
  6. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    I think trannies classify themselves as "passable" and non passable. The shooter is very masculine in an unattractive way.
     
  7. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Don't all mass shooters live in a house that looks like that?
     
  8. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    So is the notion that Christianity had anything to do with the shooting.
     
  9. UTChE96

    UTChE96 2,500+ Posts

    Most Christians I know would be disgusted by the recent attack at Planned Parenthood. And their disgust would not be qualified with a "but".

    Compare that to a recent soccer match in Turkey when the crowd booed and chanted allahu akbar during a moment of silence in honor of the victims of the Paris attacks.
     
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  10. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    The problem is that the way this is positioned puts Christians in an impossible situation. The claim is that "incendiary rhetoric" (i.e. protesting abortion) is fueling this. I've heard plenty of conservatives unequivocally say this is inexcusable, and that they condemn the act. But the problem is that's not enough - it is always in the context that this person is acting out because "you crazies don't approve of abortion or don't approve of Obama or whatever." So you force those people to defend their own stance as being unrelated to the violent act - which allows you to come back with the counter that "see, these people care more about defending their ideology than about condemning the act."

    I think it's interesting that we just got finished with weeks and weeks of how the ideology of a terrorist is irrelevant. Now all of a sudden it's relevant again? Never mind the fact that this guy appears to be crazy on a number of levels. To many on the left, he can serve as a "typical tea party anti-abortionist" - even though he doesn't appear to be "typical" of anything.
     
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  11. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Replace "Conservatives" with "Moderate Muslims" and frame the argument toward Islamic extremism vs. Muslim faith and you have the liberal defense of moderate Muslims. Coincidence?
     
  12. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    My rule on news sources is that I try to avoid the ones that make me angry. Obviously the nutcase involved is not "typical" of any group, though there have been documented efforts to link him to right wing Christians and left wing transgendered, There's a market out there for crappy, biased news, cause lots of people prefer media that stokes their anger at pre-identified villains.
     
  13. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    What's clear to me is that this dude was crazy yet claimed Christianity denoted by living in a house adorned with crosses fashioned from twigs. Is he your typical Christian? Clearly the answer is no.

    Did the anti-abortion Planned Parenthood incendiary rhetoric have a role in the deaths of 3 people and injuries to 9 others? Without a doubt. No different than an extremist cleric shouting anti-Western rhetoric from the pulpit resulting in inspired terrorism, this lay at the feet of the politicians and videographers who continue to lie to advance an agenda.
     
  14. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    What "incendiary rhetoric"?

    Please provide links.
     
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  15. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    On what you guys are calling rhetoric, there are two parts to this.
    First, is what PP was actually doing.
    Second, is their admissions of what they were doing, which were caught via undercover video.
    If this is what motivated Dear then it is incorrect to blame the associated rhetoric. Rather, he was motivated by Planned Parenthood's actual behavior and the secretly recorded admissions of that behavior. Neither is rhetoric.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
  16. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Seriously? You need a link to reference where politicians and right-wing media have espoused PP is selling body parts for profit? You need a link to Carly Fiorina making up a scene that was never in the video she's referencing?
     
  17. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    My guess is that there is less than a 5% chance a guy who self-identifies as a woman is also a Christian.
     
  18. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    I think there's a better chance that he's a conspiracy theorist thus purposely filled out the voter registration incorrectly than he truly identifies as a woman.

    There are also reports of him greeting his neighbors with anti-Obama pamphlets.
     
  19. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    You are on dangerous ground assuming the inner thoughts and feelings of a transgendered male. And you are on your own on this.
    Good luck.
     
  20. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    The only "transgendered" documentation that I'm aware of is his voter registration form. I think y'all are on shakier ground with the "transgendered" accusation than I am with the conspiracy theorist.
     
  21. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    No, it is there in the public record. I am sticking with it.
    Once enough time has passed and it becomes OK to make a joke about it, I will be all over this part.
    Dont forget, Bruce Jenner also recently killed someone.
     
  22. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    First, there was good reason to believe that was the case. Second, that has not truly been proven to be false - Planned Parenthood has denied it and claimed that the video was "doctored" (although whether "doctored" means editing out minutes and minutes of unrelated or banal chatter/dead air or splicing words together to mean something different than what they actually meant still hasn't been shown) and everyone has been told to move along. The fact is that they did coach women into procedures that were not the best option for the woman's health, for the purposes of preserving a fetus or a specific part of one. The fact is that they do in fact have an inhuman level of indifference toward what should be an incredibly serious discussion - even if you DO think it's the woman's right to choose to do it or not. The fact is that we now know that they make a practice of pushing women toward certain decisions based on demand and business needs, not on women's health.

    Whether they sold or made a profit is irrelevant, and I think it was a mistake for people to dwell on that aspect of it.

    There is no way to object to abortion without calling it what it is. So if you have something negative to say about Planned Parenthood, that means you're inciting violence. Basically, "incendiary" means "disapproving". It's a great way to get people to shut up, no doubt about it.
     
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  23. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    That analogy makes no sense, unless you can show that anyone this guy listened to has been calling for people at Planned Parenthood to be killed. The radical clerics are saying it in so many words. They're not saying "America is evil *wink wink*" and letting the followers figure the rest out on their own. Are you OK with blaming people who smeared Chic Fil A and called the FRC a hate group for this guy?

    If BLM can walk down the street chanting about killing cops and still not be held responsible for cops being assassinated, then I'm not sure how you blame anti-abortionists for what this guy decided to do on his own.
     
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  24. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    I stand by the statement. When you exaggerate the facts to promote an agenda (no proof to the profit motive), use the pulpit of a presidential debate to espouse fictitious scenes to drive emotionally driven pleas as real then you have no ground to stand on when someone leverages that rhetoric to act. There was certainly a call to action for the anti-abortion crowd. Were they calling for murder? Absolutely not but the frenzy they stirred up to achieve their agenda is all theirs.

    Do you think the radical cleric is publically stating "kill the Americans"? That would be grounds for arrest in most western countries. No, it's the tenor with which they chastise western ideals and rhetoric they use short of saying "kill the Westerners" that inspires and supports the terrorism. The only difference between that and some of the rhetoric from the right is that the right is American's inciting the crazies.

    It's not a disapproval but rather the incendiary language used. The lies and distortions that are leveraged. As multiple states have proven, there is no evidence of any wrongdoing by PP yet the calls for congressional investigations were at a fever pitch?

    I don't condone the #BLM for espousing violence against police. It should be noted that the leaders of the #BLM quickly and publically stated that they don't support that either and chastised the chant. Still, if someone were to pull a gun out and shoot a policemen in Chicago I would apportion some of the blame to #BLM for having an element of the group for inciting the act.
     
  25. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    Saying that PP has sold body parts for profit is not incendiary rhetoric. It is truth. Ugly, sordid truth. Saying, for example, "PP doctors and executives should be shot because they sell baby parts" would be inflammatory, incendiary rhetoric. The worst I have heard is calls to defund them, to remove PP from the public dole, to take them out of the taxpayers pockets. That is not incendiary by any tortured twist of the word's definition.

    So yes, please provide links to "incendiary rhetoric".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  26. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    To be clear, I did not mean to suggest that the abortion protests are in any way culpable for this crazy dude's actions. While he acted in the name of Christianity (or so it would appear), his conduct is not consistent with the peaceful, mainstream Christianity that prevails in the US.

    There are some way-left liberals who want to indict all of Christianity (or at least the fundamentalist segment of it) for this guy's actions. I think that's ridiculous. Fortunately, I don't hear very many people taking this stance.

    The moderate-liberal viewpoint, which I think is closer to reasonable, is that peaceful Christians shouldn't have to apologize for this man's conduct any more (or less) than a peaceful Muslim American should have to apologize for terrorists who act in the name of Islam. In both cases, the lunatic terrorist was using the name of the religion to justify murderous conduct, but the peaceful adherents to the religion don't accept the act as being justified by the religion.
     
  27. Hollandtx

    Hollandtx 250+ Posts

    Did the anti-abortion Planned Parenthood incendiary rhetoric have a role in the deaths of 3 people and injuries to 9 others? Without a doubt.

    I think there is a doubt. Take a look at the cabin. Do you think this person has cable, watches the news avidly, reads the paper, even has a TV? People are basing his Christianity on the fact that he has two sticks that appear to be in the form of a cross on his cabin.
    Maybe he is crazy, and happens to be against abortion.
    Plenty of doubt.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

  29. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I think you're right, but what I have seen more is an attempt to indict the pro-life movement in general. For the most part, I think people have been hands-off in terms of linking it to Christianity - and I suspect part of that is the pretty blatant double standard of doing that weeks after saying that the incident in Paris isn't to be a black mark on Islam. So it would be pretty disingenuous to make that connection at this point - and I think you're correct that very few if any people have tried.
     
  30. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    The flipside is that they are simply being consistent in their logic.
     

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