Free College

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by texas_ex2000, Nov 21, 2015.

  1. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

  2. mb227

    mb227 de Plorable

    How DARE they ask questions of an allegedly college-educated student leader...oh wait. Maybe, JUST MAYBE, if they spent some time in a classroom LEARNING something, they would at least be able to cobble together SOME sort of a meaningful response...
     
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  3. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    I thought Cavuto was pretty gentle with her.
    Perhaps WaPo should offer these activists answers instead of lamenting their inability to answer
    So WaPo how would you pay for all their demands ?
     
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  4. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I watched the interview, and though Cavuto certainly didn't softball her like many media outlets would have, his questions were fair and reasonable. I think it's pathetic that anyone would be criticizing him for this.

    Frankly, student activism is an area where the Right sorta has an advantage because it's more tempered. This girl had probably done a dozen interviews from liberal media people who never asked her a tough question. Accordingly, she was wholly unprepared for an interview in which the questioner's top priority wasn't to make her look good.

    When I was working with conservative student activists (on handling media and in debate) back in the early 2000s, I told them to assume every interviewer was hostile, and we anticipated the toughest of questions and prepared succinct but hard-hitting answers. Sometimes I would play the role of the belligerent questioner. It was a full blown woodshedding that was similar to how I'd prepare a client for a hostile deposition. Not all of them delivered brilliant performances every time, but they never did any damage.

    If you're a liberal student activist, you just have a lot less need for this kind of prep. Most interviewers mollycoddle such activists. Hell, can you imagine a mainstream media personality really holding a Black Lives Matter activist's feet to the fire? The activist would cry. The network would be embarrassed. The interviewer would have to apologize or get shitcanned. That's a good environment to be in if you're a liberal. However, if you do stumble upon an interviewer who actually has a little integrity, he can make you look like a damn fool even if he isn't necessarily trying to do that.
     
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  5. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I wouldn't say he was gentle with her. I would just say he was fair. He asked her a fair question and didn't let her dodge it. In other words, he did what a responsible journalist should do.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Hollandtx

    Hollandtx 250+ Posts

    It seems obvious that all this girl knows is what she has been spoon fed by someone.
    She repeated talking points, but once he tried to go an inch deeper she was over her head.
    I think he was actually fairly responsible, to agree on some points, but ask the correct questions. It is frightening to think of how many of these college students (best and the brightest?) will jump on board this bandwagon without asking themselves some of these questions first.
     
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  7. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    If college is free and everyone gets a degree, then graduate degrees would exponentially increase over the already high cost. These students will wonder where their high paying jobs are when they graduate.
     
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  8. UTChE96

    UTChE96 2,500+ Posts

    I am really starting to question the value of most college degrees at this point. I suspect most degrees already do not pay-out other than business, science, or engineering. But at least a college education use to mean that you had some rudimentary reasoning skills and a modicum of discipline so it was still a useful qualification even if not directly related to your job. I just do not see that anymore.
     
  9. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    I agree. The best education I received was just navigating UT and the incredible people I met. It was cheap back then, not sure my kids will get the same value.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    Actually, I find the WaPo review of Cavuto fair and does not jump on their exampled bandwagon of the LSU paper.

    The short answer is ... no, they shouldn't be coddled. They should be treated with respect as they are human ... but if you're going to seriously suggest those 3 items must be met, then be prepared for that simple question ... and ... be prepared for REJECTION.
     
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  11. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    When almost everybody in the country has a college degree, then a college degree will be utterly worthless, much like an 8th grade diploma is today.
     
  12. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Sangre
    You may be on to something. Why not just give EVERYONE a college diploma/ These whiners would have their degree, no debt and we taxpayers would save a ton of money.
    that isn't that different than what the state of Texas is doing no, giving diplomas to students who could not pass the exit tests in the core subjects
    BUT who did complain and ask to be a " graduate". 75% to 100% are granted their requests.
     
  13. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    If the WWII generation was the "Greatest Generation", then Keely's generation has got to be the whiniest bunch of titty babies to ever come down the pike.
     
  14. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    To be sure, I'm not in favor of free college. Sacrificing something (money, time, effort) to achieve the degree makes if a more valuable experience that demonstrates to an employer the caliber of the candidates work ethic and educational values.

    The funding mechanism for college does need to be re-evaluated. College has become so expensive that schools have begun to fill their enrollees with International and Out-of-state students with the primary reason being higher tuition.

    Example: At the University of Washington, a state funded school, the International/OOS enrollment was 3-5% during the early-mid 90's when I graduated. That figure is now up to 27% for 2014. Check out U of Texas, Austin. I'd wager a similar increase is occurring as schools look to offset denials of funding increases.

    One false assumption in our approach to education is personified with "No Child Left Behind". Inherit in that title is that all children are equal. In my local school district their goal is that every student will pass an AP class before graduating. Not all children are created equal or are even college material. We've removed vocational programs from our schools that gives a different option to the kids. I prefer the European approach of "tracking" kids when they reach Middle School.
     
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  15. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    Using recommendations of the professional educators, how about letting the parents decide rather than "being tracked."

    I prefer personal liberty which is accompanied by responsibility
     
  16. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    It's just my experience but the parents are what's ruining education now. Either they aren't involved enough or overly-involved to not be a good judge of "Johny's" true talents/interests.

    The new school helicopter parents are in the teachers office arguing for better grades, trying to game the system so "Sally" can get into a better college. It actually goes much further than that. Helicopter parents are following their students to college and arguing grades with their professors. Heck, I had a conversation with an HR Rep at my company last week what said it's not uncommon for parents to attempt to negotiate their sons/daughters salary for new college grads. Better yet...they've received calls about disputes during the annual performance review process.

    Nope...I'm not inclined to let the helicopter or absent parents decide what track the kid has earned.
     
  17. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    How much "real world" knowledge do we expect from college graduates. I worked with one guy back in 1980. He bragged about using his Pell Grant to take a trip to Mexico. ("I had a great time, but I deserved it because I worked hard in college.") Then he exploded with anger when he saw taxes deducted from his first paycheck, lamenting it would go to help those too lazy to work.

    A lot of what we (Hornfans Posters) know as adults we learned from well-to-do parents, personal experience buying cars, getting mortgages, etc. Just because people don't understand the real world doesn't mean they are stupid. They just haven't paid taxes or had responsibility to pay their own way.

    As far as "free college" I'm all for something that is virtually free. Have online learning from sources like the Kahn Academy, web-published textbook and tests administered by independent testing centers that now test for insurance licenses and financial certificates. But if you want kids mollycoddled with personal attention from academics making upwards of $100K per year, counseling, student activities, fitness centers, sparking facilities ... those are luxuries they or their families should pay for.
     
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  18. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    Lol

    I hear ya ref the parents....but who is responsible for the student?

    It's not the school's call.

    If the student can't hack it, that's the schools call.

    Yeah, let's have the Govt telling our children what they'll do/not post graduation. ///sarc
     
  19. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I think he's taking about tracking pre-grad. Each kids' abilities dictate what he'll study in high school rather than craft a general curriculum that assumes every kid has the same chance to become a brain surgeon like we do in the US.
     
  20. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Correct. I only see the "tracks" working up until the completion of HS.
     
  21. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    Soo ... how does one get into the college prep track if the school says ... Johnny, you're going to trade school?

    That's telling Johnny ... and the adults responsible for Johnny ... what Johnny won't do.

    Don't misunderstand ... I acknowledge we have a cataclysmic event happening in our family structure and FAR too many parents are not up to the task. That they are not up to the task doesn't mean the government is welcome to usurp that responsibility.

    The Air Force has "track selection" in undergraduate pilot training. that means if there are insufficient fighter/bomber tracks available when the last ranked student in the class "selects," he goes to tanker/transport track. now at least that's merit based ... and we're talking about commissioned officers ... not junior high minors ... but when I hear track select, that's what I envision. Some semblance of such path.

    That specialty isn't a bad thing, but I think it's CRUCIAL the responsibility for the student remain with the parent/guardian. The school system is an asset for that parent/guardian. Nothing less ... nothing more. I have hammered our local kids about their responsibility to learn noting the faculty/staff's responsibility to teach. "its' YOUR training, take advantage of every asset you have. Don't expect someone else to carry your water."

    Putting the school in the position of unilaterally making such selection removes the parent from the equation. I note, the professionals most likely have valid RECOMMENDATION and should, in most cases, be followed ... but don't start talking about public school making these "degree plan" selections without the consent of the parent.
     
  22. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    When students are routed to a non-collegiate track it should be based on aptitude and testing preferences. There are different kinds of intelligence. Vocational training can be for lucrative careers and shouldn't be seen or interpreted as "the dumb kid route."
     
  23. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    absolutely not, but the college prep track clearly has more challenging academics than the vocational track. No disrespect intended ... in fact, as we know from Mike Rowe's efforts, there are PLENTY of skilled labor jobs in high demand ... which do not require a college degree ... in fact all that does is cost money and delay the opportunity to advance from apprentice to master in the field.
     
  24. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Sure the collegiate prep route is challenging and requires dilligence, patience and interest in academic stuff. Bores some smart kids who prefer working with their hands silly and convinces them they are dumb and hate learning. All the aptitude tests are in the languages of reading, writing and math. Most of us never get comprehensive aptitude testing that measures skills that can't put in writing unless our lives go to hell and we're sent to "vocational rehab."

    Let some of those people start doing things with their hands in art class, shop, sports, cosmetology, food prep and music and some will excel. Vocational training gets the hind teat, both in terms of emphasis, quality of students attracted and the motivational levels they bring with them.
     
  25. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    There's a lot of truth in that.

    But I also know there's a disconnect in this specialty diploma track and the absolute homogenous demographic in elementary, too. Gifted/Talented, typical, academically challenged, english second language, and discipline issues ... all in the same class at the same time. No one getting what they need.

    In an age group where specialization is "more necessary," it's lacking ... & where it could be less important, it's more available. I don't remember a "college prep" diploma track. Didn't have AP classes ... or even dual credit. My guys are exiting HS with 24 hours of college credit!

    The flip side to what my guys are doing is what some of their classmates are pursuing ... and in that they didn't have to take english classes which actually expect proper writing and speaking.

    Anyhow ... the expectation of free is fallacy.
     
  26. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    This.

    There's a difference between education and self-education. Anyone should have access to information - you ought to be able to learn about history, economics, art... whatever academic pursuit you want... regardless of your situation in life. That in itself requires a sacrifice - much more than attending college for five years at little or no personal expense. Maybe that's part of the solution, as opposed to making a formal degree the intended outcome for everyone in the country.

    That to me is a really interesting idea, and it's probably something we don't do because we would never want to recommend that a child become *shudder* a manual laborer!! It requires a rethinking of what we value in society - maybe springs from generations of people who worked with their hands and aspired to what they consider "more". "My kid won't have to have callouses on his hands or an aching back at the end of the day..." It's an admirable sentiment, but sometimes I think the result of that was a culture that thinks those jobs are to be held in low esteem.
     
  27. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    I don't hold my plumber in low esteem when my pipes are hopelessly clogged. I don't hold my electrician or his helpers in low esteem when I need work done. I don't hold my auto mechanic in low esteem when I can't figure out what's wrong with my car.

    You have hit the nail on the head. We as a society have to get back to recognizing the value of skilled labor (Dirty Jobs?) at all times, not just when we have a sudden personal need for it. And that recognition must work its way back into our educational system in the form of robust Vocational Ed programs that allow for virtual apprenticeships during High School for those kids who want to pursue a non-college career path.
     
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  28. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Better yet, those jobs can never be offshored which can't be said for manufacturing roles, the other "manual labor" category.

    I've tried carpentry enough to realize that I'm no carpenter. I will never again assume I can go purchase fancy equipment and replace all the trim in my house. Mitering corners is much more complex than anything I do as an IT leader.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 1, 2015
  29. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    That's an excellent point, and one which I had not considered.
     
  30. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    a large part of wisdom is in knowing when to hire it done ... and when so, whom.
     

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