New Ohio abortion restriction

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by NJlonghorn, Dec 7, 2016.

  1. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    You're right, Phil. We will be held to account; individually and as a society

    One could argue we are already seeing the rotten fruit in the disregard for others. The increasing selfishness, et al.

    Thanks.
     
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  2. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    You are right that a second Trump SCOTUS appointment would merely result in the demise of Roe v. Wade, which would return the abortion debate to each state. I think some states would make a bad policy choice by outlawing abortion, but to me this wouldn't be the huge deal that liberals make it out to be.

    The bigger problem would be the potential next step. If life begins at conception, then a fetus has the same rights as a post-birth person. A law that prohibits the murder of one but permits the murder of the other would, arguably, violate equal protection.

    On the current Supreme Court, I suspect (without direct evidence) that support for this position is 2/8, and that it will become 3/9 with Trump's new appointment. Roe v. Wade might be the only consequence of a second Trump justice, but a national abortion ban could be the consequence of a third Trump justice.

    I think a national abortion band would be bad policy, but that wouldn't really impact me personally all that much. My bigger concern is that a national abortion ban could (and I thin would) result in a huge liberal sweep of elected offices. Over 70% of Americans think abortion laws are either just right or too strict, with under 30% believing they are too permissive. Republicans would be marching against popular opinion by banning abortion outright.
     
  3. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    If this is how the Dems spin it, you may be right. They should go back to what worked in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s -- this is a war about abortion rights. It has nothing to do with most other women's-rights issues, and trying to shoe-horn this into identity politics has failed and will continue to fail if they go in that direction.
     
  4. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

    The only thing I care about is what would Texas decide?

    Prepare for the boycotts.
     
  5. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Gotta disagree here. First, I've never actually heard of one of the current justices making this argument or raising it in a court opinion. I'm sure there's a legal commentator out there who espouses that view (because there's a legal commentator to espouse every view), but I've never heard any indication that a current justice agrees with it.

    Second, I think it's questionable to call it a "next step." Roe isn't an equal protection case. It's a due process case that involves an entirely different body of law, different issues, different rights or alleged rights, and different potential parties of interest. Accordingly, an equal protection case involving fetuses is not a logical extension of reversing Roe. It would be an entirely new dispute with new issues. In fact, it's technically possible (though absurd) for the equal protection case to be made without overturning Roe.

    Finally, an equal protection case could potentially made of any law. If someone did bring such a case, it would likely be decided under a rational basis test that would be very deferential to the states wanting to protect abortion rights. Accordingly the odds of them losing (and therefore forcing a national ban) are highly remote.

    I'm not so sure. The reason Democrats stopped arguing about abortion rights and pivoted to "women's issues" is that it was a more humane sounding to use that euphemism than talking directly about abortion. If they went back to taking directly about abortion, it would force a discussion about the specifics of abortion, and they are gruesome. If I was a pro-choice advocate, I'd want to stay away from that.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  6. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    Well said, Deez
     
  7. Phil Elliott

    Phil Elliott 2,500+ Posts

    Oh I agree we are already reaping a bad harvest from abortion in a marked decrease in the respect for the sanctity of life.
     
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  8. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    Isn't a beating heart a scientifically measurable sign of human life? You stop the beating heart, you end a human life. Viability is a term that is more about voodoo than science.
     
  9. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    I'm assuming "viability" is a series of scientifically measurable factors. So, 1 sign vs. a series of signs and research. I'll go with the latter.
     
  10. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Kasich surprisingly vetoed the Ohio "heartbeat" bill. He had this to say:

     
  11. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    Color me un-surprised. Kasich is a reasonable guy, and this action reinforces my belief that he was the best choice for the presidency in 2016. Oh well, I guess that shows you how much my opinion matters.
     
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  12. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    This was a wise decision but the easy choice would have been to sign it.
     
  13. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    Probably. Perhaps he is positioning himself for the pendulum swinging back from a surge too far to the right.
     
  14. nashhorn

    nashhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Whatever, heartbeat is enough for me, but of course that's just me. And I for one am glad I did NOT vote for Kasich and I would have vs Clinton (or even Trump for that matter). Again just my opinion but I think him an A****** for the veto. Changed my opinion,
     
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  15. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    You assume that viability uses scientific measures? Any facts to base your assumption on? My reading about the subject points to conjecture not measurements.

    Do you deny that a heart beat is a scientific measurement of life?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Horns11

    Horns11 10,000+ Posts

    This one has some measures

    You're trying to parse "life" with survivability. I don't think anyone doubts that a fetus is living inside a mother (or if there are sick individuals out there who think that a fetus is just some kind of amorphous blob parasite, they're in the minority). But viability is pretty important.
     
  17. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I'm glad Kasich vetoed the bill. He did the right thing. However, I do fear that this will mark the end of his political career. I hope I'm wrong.
     
  18. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    Until he switches to the Democrat or Independent party, his career in politics beyond Gov of Ohio is over.
     
  19. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Independents don't win statewide in Ohio, and Kasich is far too conservative to win a Democratic primary. If he can't survive a GOP primary, he's done.
     
  20. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    It seems Kasich took a pragmatic view to his decision on vetoing the legislation. Pragmatism has no role in the current Republican party unless it comes via the cult of Trump personality.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 14, 2016
  21. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    That is my point. And kind of ironic that Kasich's staying in the race led to Trump getting the nomination.
     
  22. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 2,500+ Posts

    If Trump keeps careening right, and if the 2020 Republican primary is Trump vs. Kasich, I think you may see lots of independents and democrats crossing over to vote for Kasich. How likely this is to succeed depends on how far right Trump goes, and how good of a candidate the Democrats put up. I wouldn't count him out just yet.

    Edit to add: I hope this doesn't happen. I hope Trump does a good job as president and stays near enough to the center that folks like me and SH are comfortable voting for him in 2020. I'm just saying I'm not ready to give up on Kasich yet.
     
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