Caucus for Torah Values

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by NJlonghorn, Jan 23, 2022.

  1. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Deo Gratias

    You forgot.....and handsome.
     
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  2. horninchicago

    horninchicago 10,000+ Posts

    I didn't forget, I thought I would let His Humbleness tell us.

    :bow:
     
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  3. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Deo Gratias

    I would disagree that the Church's teaching on purgatory is not theological.
    It's based on scripture, so it's not a supposition. Now, the Church doesn't teach definitively if it is a place or a process, but it is real. I'm on the side of process.
    I know this isn't Catholic Bible study, but If no one minds I'll toss in a couple or so scriptural principles regarding purgatory. Of course you're free to disagree, not trying to convert anyone....

    2 Samuel 12:13-18
    “David said to Nathan, ‘I have sinned against the Lord.’ And Nathan said to David, ‘the Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die.’ And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and it became sick… On the seventh day the child died.”

    Biblical Principle #1 – there is punishment for sin even after one has received forgiveness.


    Revelation 21:27
    “But nothing unclean shall enter it…” Referring to the New Jerusalem – Heaven.

    Biblical Principle #2 – nothing unclean, nothing with the stain of sin, will enter Heaven.

    Heb 12:22-23
    “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living god, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect…”

    Biblical Principle #3 – there is a way, a process, through which the spirits of the just are “made perfect”.

    1 Cor 3:13-15
    “…each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day (judgment day) will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation (Jesus Christ) survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”

    Where is this place (or process) that a man, after he dies, suffers loss, as through fire, but is still saved? Hell? No, once you’re in Hell you don’t get out. Heaven? No, you don’t suffer loss in Heaven.

    Biblical Principle #4 – there is a place in the afterlife other than Heaven or Hell.

     
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  4. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    I meant to say it is not official church doctrine (vs teaching), meaning no one is obligated to believe it to be catholic.
     
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  5. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Deo Gratias

    I know that was a general statement and not directed at any specific person or group, but I get a kick out of it when it's made against the Catholic Church. Cause you know, the Pope livin it up in his 1 bedroom apartment and his Ferrari :fire: lol
     
  6. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Deo Gratias

    Okay, gotcha. Sorry :hookem:
     
  7. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    The most useless food product in existence.
     
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  8. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    Looks like David's purgatory was served here on Earth. The thing is, he knew his sin and the punishment. Most of us don't know if bad news is the same as what David experienced.
     
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  9. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Deo Gratias

    That’s actually a great point, By. This verse was more to lay out the biblical principle of punishment even after forgiveness, not necessarily the process of purgatory.
     
  10. OUBubba

    OUBubba 5,000+ Posts

    :bullseye:
     
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  11. OUBubba

    OUBubba 5,000+ Posts

    Yes. In my mind's eye I saw the Church of England when I formed that sentence.

    Interesting reading/writing here. I've always believed that the hell that scares us all is Dante's version. As a kid with some Baptist upbringing I cringed every time my old man would say "I'd give my front seat in hell for __________". After reading, classes, thought, etc. I re-formed my theories.
     
  12. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    I read a book called The Christian Agnostic. In it, the author preached that an all or nothing literal belief can separate us from God. He approached problematic passages with two boxes of storage so that he could continue on in his scholarship and faith:

    1) "It may be so, I do not know"
    2) "Awaiting further light"
     
  13. OUBubba

    OUBubba 5,000+ Posts

    That looks intriguing. I took much solace from Mark, "I believe. Help my unbelief."

    I am jealous of those who look in the mirror with absolute faith.
     
  14. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    I suppose I wish I had some level of certainty. My ex-wife is as certain as they come and she has lost custody of our children to me because she is a nut. Her entire being is about Jesus and yet she is a mental abuser of the highest order. That's only one person but I am leery of certainty.

    The Apostles displayed much fear and doubt at times. Peter denied him three times. Judas betrayed him. They all witnessed his miracles. How can we be so certain 2,000 years later?
     
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  15. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I'm a Christian of the Right. I'm generally pro-Israel. I personally like Jews. In fact, I've never met a Jew I didn't like. (Same with Mormons.) However, there is a segment of the Christian Right that sorta has a weird fetish for Jews and Judaism. It's not a sexual fetish, but it's a strange political fetish with a religious undertone. It's the John Hagee phenomenon. They incorporate a Jewish angle on things whenever they can. Even with my generally positive views of Israel and Jews, I think it's weird.
     
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  16. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    I've heard the support you speak of can be attributed to their fervid believe in prophecy, and Israel's existence is key to Gabriel blowing his horn.

    I don't have a fetish for anyone. I married into a family and now have a Jewish brother in law. He's a great person. Very calm and accomplished. The voice of reason. Able to control his emotions and always on point with what matters.

    They say Jews are like everybody else, only more so. In the end, they live, they love, they suffer... but they also have a connection with the history of their people. Maybe folks are jealous of that. But to have a connection like that is to live the negatives and they endure to this day.
     
  17. OUBubba

    OUBubba 5,000+ Posts

    Many Okies are HUGE fans of the chosen people. But, not, you know, actual Jews in the US because I have no idea. Some of them even minimize the impact of the holocaust. They can't generally separate followers of Judaism from the state of Israel.
     
  18. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    You can't get a full appreciation for the obscene wealth of the Roman Catholic Church until you visit the Vatican Museums. Miles and miles of antiquities taken from cultures around the world. If the church were a corporation, it would be one of the Worlds wealthiest, despite the Pope's humble 1 bedroom apartment.
     
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  19. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Deo Gratias

    Agree, the Church has a vast amount of beautiful breathtaking art. Thank God!
     
  20. Chop

    Chop 10,000+ Posts

    [​IMG]
    :arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up::arrow-up:
    A relief sculpture based on the Torah: Moses with the 10 Commandments.
    Photo from the United States Supreme Court Building.
     
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  21. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I have no problem with the Catholic church having a lot of art, but I'm not sure how having it promotes anything biblical. It's not like money, which can be used to build churches and help the poor. It's just sitting there looking fancy.
     
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  22. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    I seem to recall a poor carpenter without any possessions being a tad unimpressed by the leaders of the church in his day...
     
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  23. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Deo Gratias

    Agree… that’s why He founded his own.
     
  24. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Deo Gratias

    Interesting, Deez.

    I think objections about the Church’s alleged wealth is in regard to the art in the Vatican. Most of the art represents the work of Christians who wanted to place their talents at the service of God through the Church. The artwork is an example of their religiosity (if thats word) and is not for sale. Had the Catholic Church not preserved the art, much of it would have been destroyed through the ages. The art is part of our heritage as Christians and few people, Catholic or Non, who appreciate such breathtaking work would prefer that these majestic treasures be entrusted to secular folk, or salesman.

    Matthew 26:6-11
    A woman came up to Him with an alabaster jar of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on His head as He sat at table. But when the disciples saw it, they were indignant, saying, “Why this waste? For the ointment might have been sold for a large sum and given to the poor.” But Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to Me. For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have Me.”
     
  25. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    Just in case you wonder if I really think about this stuff, here's a poem I wrote about me interviewing Jesus:


    Jesus, why do I carry a hammer and a nail?
    It is easier to judge than to forgive

    Jesus, why do I need you to speak for me?
    My father wants you to live

    Jesus, why can I not turn the other cheek?
    You only know how to cause pain

    Jesus, how should I live my life?
    Providing shelter to the poor is your aim

    Jesus, should I become a rich man?
    Whose life do you wish to mimic?

    Jesus, am I bound by the old law?
    The laws are the notes; listen to the music

    Jesus, why did you have to die on the cross?
    To demonstrate the cruelty in the world

    Jesus, why didn't you save yourself?
    So my father's glory would be unfurled

    Jesus, why were you not covered in gold?
    Earthly riches separate mankind from one another

    Jesus, why did you accept a sinner?
    Have you ever met anything other?

    Jesus, why did you stop the stoning?
    To bring your sin into view

    Jesus, why did you tell her to sin no more?
    She is no different than you

    Jesus, should we punish others for their sins?
    Why does this concern you so?

    Jesus, there are so many bad people
    Your own heart is all you really know

    Jesus, shouldn't we fight evil?
    Who made them that way?

    Jesus, God has blessed our country!
    All are blessed who pray

    Jesus, we have to kill the enemy
    Blessed are the peacemakers

    Jesus, they want to kill us!
    Are you one of the money changers?

    Jesus, why did your father ask Abraham to kill Isaac?
    To test his belief

    Jesus, why did your father spare Isaac?
    In grace Abraham found relief

    Jesus, how can a country be moral?
    It all starts with you

    Jesus, I'm just one person
    There are others waiting too

    Jesus, I'm a good person
    Why do you scorn the poor?

    Jesus, I work hard for my money
    But what's important, you ignore

    Jesus, what's important?
    Loving thy neighbor

    Jesus, I do love my neighbor!
    And yet there are so many you abhor

    Jesus, I could never be like you
    All I ask is that you try

    Jesus, I can't earn my way to heaven
    You must ask or you will die

    Jesus, why must I ask?
    Because you have free will

    Jesus, give me a sign
    I want to see if you are faithful

    Jesus, why do I have to be faithful?
    Because you will not believe your own eyes

    Jesus, I promise this time I will
    Mankind only believes the lies

    Jesus, why does God love me?
    Do you love your own child?

    Jesus, why doesn't he just accept me?
    He does even if you are reviled

    Jesus, why does he want my love?
    He is made in your image

    Jesus, what does that mean?
    Inside your emotions lives the message

    Jesus, isn't life just about science?
    Can you measure love?

    Jesus, I only believe what is proven
    Noah only needed a dove

    Jesus, everyone thinks you are a myth
    What does your heart say?

    Jesus, I am ashamed to bear your name
    Then why do you not turn away?

    Jesus, if I believe will there still be pain?
    You were born in pain along with grace

    Jesus, did I lose God's grace?
    Your pure heart God did not erase

    Jesus, why do I feel so unworthy?
    Because you are finally humbled

    Jesus, what is left of me?
    Out of stone love was chiseled

    Jesus, I want to go to heaven!
    All who thirst for God will be welcome

    Jesus, take me with you!
    You are destined for God's Kingdom
     
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  26. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    This is an unfortunate passage as I believe it cleanses the minds of those in wealth... there is no regret or concern when Jesus himself words it in such a way as to make one assume the poor are poor for reasons that are either their own fault or God's will.
     
  27. guy4321

    guy4321 2,500+ Posts

    Fair enough. My point only has to evolve slightly. Temple leaders already showed how to make money off the Old Testament. No need to modify the language to be scarier to turn a profit.

    Maybe mentioned already. There's a common view in Protestant churches that Jews must return to Israel as a precondition for Christ’s second coming.
     
  28. Duck Dodgers

    Duck Dodgers 1,000+ Posts

    I've never heard that in 20 years of attending a Protestant church. Considering the Jews have always been in the Israel area, and have had their own country for 70 plus years, you'd have to be pretty old to remember a time that they didn't have their own country.
     
  29. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    I've also never heard any sermons about "managing" prophecy. But I have read some articles over the year about how the American right wing evangelicals are Israel's greatest friend. Like this guy:

    Pastor John Hagee | Christians United for Israel

    upload_2022-1-26_16-53-27.png

    But if you look him up, he has some pretty crazy ideas...
     
  30. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I understand that. I think it's weird.
     

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