Who should start as QB against Notre Dame?

Discussion in 'On The Field' started by rabidhornfan, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. WorsterMan

    WorsterMan SEC here we come!!

    ^^^ This.
     
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  2. Brad Austin

    Brad Austin 2,500+ Posts

    The ole 'coach knows better than us' defense. :rolleyes1:

    Didn't hold water when Heard was denied the starting job last summer and half the fans knew what was coming. Same defense was used for choosing Swoopes.

    How about Gray's continued starting with a majority of carries over Foreman when fans were yelling to start the more effective big man?

    Both of those were clearly poor coaching choices and fans argued for the opposite.

    Both times the coach had to be forcefed the better choice after watching his original choice fail to get it done and damage the team's chance to win.

    So let's really think about if Gilbert knows better than we do. I heard SG himself say he hasn't and wasn't going to watch past film on his QB's.

    So what info does SG have to make this decision? He has Strong's opinions (which were wrong last year at QB), and he has practice observations.

    The key ingredient he's missing that is imperative is to date Swoopes has played vastly inferior to his practice performance. TS is the opposite of a "gamer".

    Has SG weighed that in as significantly as it requires when he hasn't seen TS play the last two years like we have? No.

    All he is making his decision off of is what he sees in practice. The same way the OC and CS did it last year when choosing Swoopes.

    The 'coach knows best' over fans defense is proven wrong on countless occasions.

    Coaches mainly see things from an an insider view and on occasion this results in wrongly trusting or sticking with guys too long they believe in. Happens at every program on every level.

    In the off-season it's not uncommon for coaches to bring in a consultant coach they trust to give them an outsider perspective to combat this tunnel vision and improve.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  3. Godz40acres

    Godz40acres Happy Feller

    :clap:
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  4. Phil Elliott

    Phil Elliott 2,500+ Posts

    Sounds like Cedric Golden and I are of one mind on this issue. I don't take the Statesman, but you would think I read that article before I posted what I did. You will have to take my word for it that I did not.
     
  5. Phil Elliott

    Phil Elliott 2,500+ Posts

    And our coaching staff seemed to be the only ones in Austin who did not understand that DA was very fragile. They were totally unprepared, by their own admission, for DA to go down.
     
  6. GeoSteppen

    GeoSteppen 25+ Posts

    Charlie Strong will not be a bad coach because he starts Tyrone Swoopes. He will be bad if he loses too many games with this much talent.

    His real problem has been giving the keys to the offense to folks who were not up to the job (Watson and Traylor). Charlie does not like to get involved with O.

    Sterlin is in a position to change that all around for Charlie. That's why seeing Tyrone start the game does not mean Charlie is a bad coach. It's all about the wins however it happens.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  7. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    So your sayin the fans, including you of course, know more, and know better than Sterling Gilbert about who should play where and when they should play. All righty then.:rolleyes1:

    By the way, Heard was the starter who pitched the shutout against Iowa state. Just as he was the starter who guided the team to a win over ou. And then Swoopes was the starter engineering the win over Baylor. Kind of inconsistent talent and performances all the way around, I would say.

    You have every right to disagree with any move any coach makes. Especially in hindsight. Monday morning quarterbacking is an age old tradition for all football fans. But to actually believe you know more than Sterling Gilbert regarding personnel issues on the team? Wow, just Wow!
     
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  8. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Why does stoopes playing a couple of series equal ND scoring 14 points? Are you saying he will throw 2 pick sixes. Don't you think that our defense would have more responsibility for ND scoring 14 points than our starting QB, no matter who it is? I'm not calling for Swoopes to start, but the stampede for Charlie's head should Stoopes start, and the leap to conclude that Stoopes starting equals a 14 zip lead for ND seems like catastrophic thinking.

    I hope our defense is improved from last year, and I hope ND's O line is not as good. Those possibilities should have more to do with how often, and how much, ND scores than our starting QB.
     
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  9. dukesteer

    dukesteer 5,000+ Posts

    Some players are just born to lead. Born winners. I'm not saying that Buechele is that guy, but it would not shock me. It seems like almost everything about his life up to now (that I have read) suggests that he is destined to succeed.

    So maybe, just maybe, a national televised game on a Sunday against ND doesn't intimidate him like it would most of us. Like it would Swoopes... Some guys simply thrive on the pressure.
     
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  10. GeoSteppen

    GeoSteppen 25+ Posts

    Colt was a gamer, Vince was a gamer, Applewhite was a gamer. Different skill sets but all could execute under pressure. Shane could be just what the doctor ordered if he protects himself. We will find out in roughly 12 days! Also we will find out about Swoopes . He could have a Boykin kinda year in the new system. I am rooting for them both because it will indicate a robust system that doesn't rely on a superhuman effort to succeed.
     
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  11. Brad Austin

    Brad Austin 2,500+ Posts

    Good thing Hornfans has archived posts debating Heard vs. Swoopes before ND 2015. I was adamantly clear who should start that one too.

    And I'll tell you right now it's an even easier choice this year with SB over Swoopes.

    And trust me, if Swoopes would've held the staring job all of 2015, Strong might not have a job today after 4 wins at best.

    Heard only won 4 of his first 10 college starts, but let's not pretend he didn't almost single-handedly upset Cal and refs stole OSU win. His QB play was worthy of 6-4.

    As for Swoopes beating Baylor, it helps when playing a team with no healthy QB who can complete a forward pass. And we still almost lost that game.

    If on the final game deciding drive Briles hadn't mysteriously abandoned the WR-led wildcat that had gashed us for 17 unanswered, we lose that game.

    Do I know better than SG when he chooses to start Swoopes over Shane, and publicly stated he hasn't watched any past films on Swoopes? Damn right, in this case I do.

    I'm the only one between us who knows in great detail how Swoopes functions on game day in multiple sets (including spread) and facing various levels of pressure.

    I've seen the same heavy limitations while commanding three different offenses under several OC's.

    I may not have the practice view of SG, but reports say they are even with Shane slightly ahead. And in the Spring Game I saw the very same SB I studied on HS tape and gushed over his advanced intangibles and "it" factor.

    I took the same heat (even same "coach knows better" arguments) while vocally backing Heard before ND last year.

    And all those slamming my position jumped on the Heard bandwagon the day after Swoopes went all Swoopes again under pressure.

    Get ready for Swoopes to be the inferior QB (not 18-wheeler) again vs. ND. Come Monday Sept. 5 I hope all return here and own up when we see who was clearly better.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  12. BevoQ

    BevoQ 250+ Posts

    *clapping loudly* yes yes Brad you get it!! I too, like I said before, will be on here September 5th and calling for CS head and saying I told you so if TS starts and flops. I hope for everyone's sake including my own, I eat a big ole pile of crow that day but I don't think I will.
    For all the people who bring up the Baylor game as something that supports TS having starter potential, you must not have actually watched that game.
     
  13. BevoQ

    BevoQ 250+ Posts

    Tyrone Swoopes vs Baylor
    12-19 for 151 yards - 1TD
    57 of those yards came from a pass to Bluiett which he ran in for the lone TD Swoopes accounted for.
    Take that play away and you get:
    11-18 for 94 yards.... In 4 quarters of football against a Baylor Defense!!

    Spring Game:
    4-16 for 71 yards with two picks.

    SB
    22-41 passes for 299 yards 2TD's

    We shouldn't even be having an argument about this. The writing is all over the walls in HUGE LETTERS. Going with TS is a huge slap in the face to the Longhorn fan base who, despite what some of y'all believe, has people in it with high football IQ.
     
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  14. gahornphan

    gahornphan 500+ Posts

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  15. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Brad, I don't think the outcome of last year's ND v Texas game would have changed at all had Heard started. ND defense was too stout. Heard was like a deer in the headlights when he did get in. And I understand. He was totally inexperienced, playing against a really big, fast and well coached defense. Playing behind an O line that was full of more holes than a pair of ten year old underwear.

    TCU's defense was stout too, and look what happened.

    ISU's D was not stout, and look what happened: Heard led Horns get shut out. Still shaking my head about that ISU loss.

    To say the least, our QB play last year was inconsistent.

    To cherry pick plays out of Swoopes' Baylor performance last year to criticize him is silly. And a diss to a young man who played a fine game. Tyrone's stats were good enough to win. Charlie wasn't trying to pad anyone's stats. The coaches stopped our aggressive game plan in the second half, playing to lower the chances of mistakes, and not to lose. They managed the game to a win. Worked for me, and I hope all hornfans.

    I'm not at all sure who should start this year against ND. But I'll take Sterling Gilbert's personnel evaluations and choices over yours every time. And so would anyone who has a football IQ over 20. No offense to you. Just a compliment to Coach Gilbert.

    My guess is that our starter in the first game will not take significantly more snaps than whoever else comes in to share the snaps as the game goes on. We simply don't have a true starter as of yet. Maybe we will by mid season, but we don't now. Wouldn't surprise me to see Swoopes, Heard and Buchelle all took snaps against ND.
     
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    Last edited: Aug 23, 2016
  16. Godz40acres

    Godz40acres Happy Feller

    Disagree.

    Heard played in 2 (TWO) series the entire game and both were in the first half. He threw 1 pass and completed it while moving the chains twice in his first appearance.

    Swoopes had 10 series which produced 6 first downs.

    Here's a post following last year's nd game:

    Jerrod Heard did not play the entire 2nd half.

    Strong was asked in the post-game Q&A if Heard was hurt and he said no – he had the wind knocked out of him on the one play, but returned the next series.

    In a post-game interview, Shawn Watson was asked why Heard did not make an appearance in the 2nd half and he replied: "Ty was competing, he was competing really hard and we felt like he gave us the best chance."

    Okay, then. Let’s see…

    1st HALF
    Swoopes:
    • In 4 out of his 5 series, TS went 3&out
    • In 21 total plays, TS had 1½ first downs (the ½ is for a 3rd down penalty resulting in a first down)
    • TS went 1 for 8 for 20 yards

    Heard:
    • In 1 out of his 2 series, JH went 3&out
    • In 6 total plays, JH had 2 first downs
    • JH went 1 for 1 for 10 yards
    With what my eyes told me and the stats show, I can certainly see why Watson kept Heard on the sideline in the 2nd half. Really, he doesn’t ever need to see the field again – I mean if he can’t turn the game around in 6 plays, what good is he? ( ;) )
     
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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  17. ViperHorn

    ViperHorn 10,000+ Posts

    and Texas did not have a clue on offense.
     
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  18. BevoQ

    BevoQ 250+ Posts

    Not how I see it. I see it as good enough not to lose. Meaning he didn't throw his usually costly INT(s) or fumble on the goal line. No one should accept a stat line like 11-18 for 94yrds from the starting QB at The Univeristy of Texas. That is not a Qb that can move the chains nor one that can take you downfield to score in the 4th quarter.

    Would you like me to go through all the "big games" TS crapped the bed in? Believe me before every single one I had the hope that TS may turn it around and in each game I was sorely disappointed. How are you so confident hanging your hat on a guy that blew the starting job last year and would have blown it he year before had we had anyone to play in his place.

    ISU game was a product of not having an OC pure and simple. Norvell (God bless him) did the best he could but he could not scheme for games. He found a game plan that worked with OU, used it to squeak by Kstate, and tried it again against ISU and they countered and he never adjusted. The guy could not make adjustments and had to ride with the game plan he brought to the game which failed.
     
  19. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    I'll take it every time at the University of Texas as long as the University of Texas wins the game. Period.

    See my quote below from my post above. As it says, I am not hanging my hat on anyone.


    I'm not referring to Shawn WAtson when I state I have confidence in Sterling Gilbert to make personnel decisions about our offense. So please read my quote above again re: my confidence in Coach Gilbert.

    The point of my posts are that I choose to trust Coach Gilbert and his judgement. There is no comparison or correlation between Watson and Gilbert that would have you call Gilbert into question in such a negative manner as is being done in Brad's and other's posts. Now after the ND game there may be. But there is not now.

    That's my opinion, and if things go south with the offense this year, then I will re evaluate.
     
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  20. dukesteer

    dukesteer 5,000+ Posts

    Boy do I agree in spades.

    A willingness to hitch ones job and ones future to a QB who has repeatedly underachieved and melted down under pressure when another compelling choice is available would suggest a lack of judgment in my opinion.
     
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  21. Brad Austin

    Brad Austin 2,500+ Posts

    What I find laughable about all this...

    Imagine if we were having this discussion back in April the day after the Spring Game. A never wrong psychic told us SB and TS would roughly tie in summer practice...at the very least TS would not prove better than SB on the field in August.

    Having that future information after just witnessing SB own the Spring Game and provide new hope to a previously disastrous QB position the day before, how many people would've lost their mind if told Strong was still going to start Swoopes vs. ND?

    But now after a bogus OB report and reports saying SB has struggled at times (though no worse than TS), some support a return back to the same old live fire QB limitations and suppressing the astounding promise Shane showed us in droves that day.

    11-14 has drained the competitive fire and pride out of so many Horns. Even willing to accept a Swoopes-redux offense and more 6+ loss mediocrity if we look improved. :puke:
     
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    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  22. VYFan

    VYFan 2,500+ Posts

    Brad Austin, I'll ask the same question as before: Are you really fuming angry when you post, with red face and bulging carotid arteries? It's what it always sounds like.

    There aren't that many posters on Hornfans anyway; we all have had a chance to say our piece along the way, and everyone has been heard. There's no need to basically repeat yourself louder and louder.

    Who are the people who are supporting the "same old" thing, and suppressing Shane Buechele? All of us who were at the Spring game are right with you, hoping he's the best quarterback we've had in years, and hoping he's ready to start as soon as possible. I've never spoken to anyone to disagree with that hope. If it's not clear, I hope Buechele starts every game and is as good as Colt McCoy was in his redshirt freshman year. That's a high standard (best ever, at the time), but possible.

    I did go look at the posts last year. You said not to be surprised if we beat ND, because they were overrated. You expected Swoopes to be improved, after a sophomore slump, but were understandably unsure how Heard might be, him having no experience. Now, you've retrofitted the loss to all the coaches' fault for not "starting" Heard, but he did play pretty early. He got his bell rung--that's what I saw--and never came back in the game. (IMHO, Watson just said Swoopes was "competing well" to cover for Heard's injury.)

    I think Buechele looked fantastic in the Spring game. I was also not 20 yards from him when he got crumpled by a safety on the last play of the game, in a fairly mild hit that left him dazed and confused. That concerned me. We cannot be positive he can take all 100 or so snaps in the ND game. We really have to have 2 QBs ready to go--the ND game last year showed that, if nothing else. If Buechele gets his bell rung, I don't want to give up the game or the season.

    It seems like you:
    1. Already do not like Charlie Strong, and the main thrust of your posts is to rally others not to like him.
    2. Are creating this artificial issue--who "starts" the game on September 4,--as this line in the sand, where you have pushed all the chips in and are ready to blow a gasket if Swoopes runs out there to take the first series.
    3. Have manufactured this psychological argument that if that happens, everyone else on the team and in the stands will blow a gasket at the same time you do, and that all will be lost, and that every negative thought you have ever had will be validated. According to you, if the defense or special teams give up points, or we lose (to a favored, ranked team) for any reason whatsoever, you will pin this on Charlie Strong because of this psychological argument--it was all because Tyrone took the first snap.


    There are at least three reasons--other than your theory that Charlie Strong is an imbecile--why no starter has been named (to us fans). One, it could at least slightly keep the opponent unsure which style to prepare for. Two, it could be that Buechele may be having some problems we do not even know about that are being worked on--health or performance. Three, even if Buechele is already known to the coaches to be the starter (as in taking the first snap, or even intended to go the whole game)--as I said before--it's not a bad idea to have a face-saving substitution available if he is playing awfully or we are getting blown out.

    So, each day that goes by without an announcement as to the starter is not a new proof that Charlie Strong does not know what he is doing, or a new reason to get angrier.
     
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  23. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Just heard Rod Babers being interviewed on the radio. He says he is getting it "from inside sources that Shane is the starter. In his opinion, all the leaked info about Tyrone "coming on strong" to put the starter into question is just smoke to keep the Irish game planning for both QB's.
    This would not be surprising. The coaches are doing everything in their power to give us any edge they can. Including scheming for all our QB's to be prepared to play. As VYfan said, Heard got dinged last year in the first half. It could happen again to any of them. And even if they are fortunate enough to all stay healthy, there will be certain situations where each of them take snaps. As I've noted before, the coaching staff is going to put a genuinely inventive, fast, multiple look out there.

    Our O line is very young. Our QB is very young. And somewhat fragile (as Babers noted today, and others have pointed out). But Gilbert will game plan to protect him. Quick, quick throws, deception, and lots of power runs. And likely a strong dose of the 18 wheeler in short yardage. The football is an oblong shape, designed to take unpredictable bounces. And it does just that.
     
  24. puckhead

    puckhead 100+ Posts

    I hate this thread for so many reasons.
     
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  25. Phil Elliott

    Phil Elliott 2,500+ Posts

    I agree with this and this thought is what keeps me up at night most about this season - the possibility that we have the wrong coach. Seriously, besides recruiting, what has CS been even moderately good at that is required of the HC of UT? Just about everything else has been a CF. I do want CS to succeed and I hope I am wrong about all of this.
     
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  26. BevoQ

    BevoQ 250+ Posts

    Are you referring to things like: lack of player focus on the field, penalties, muffed punts and kicks, poor tackling, poor big game performance and poor road game performance? I want Charlie to be a great HC, I think the sample size we have here at Texas is too small to judge all those things I listed earlier on.
     
  27. BevoQ

    BevoQ 250+ Posts

    I haven't called for Strongs head yet, I have stated previously what would make me begin to do so.
    His recruiting has been unmatched, especially given our record. If he starts winning he could be continually stockpiling talent here that could put us in the natty hunt year in and year out for a long long time. I also think he is a fantastic talent evaluator, far better than Mack ever was. However, that is only one part of being a successful P5 coach.
    Face it, he wasn't left with much and what he did have he got rid of, he was essentially getting into a shoot out with no bullets in his gun. The dismissals were nessisary. The culture change was necessary. There were a whole lot of coordinators that wanted no part of that situation because, we expect to win and win now, and it was going to be a very difficult road ahead for the fans and the whole staff and there were going to be casualties, and there was.

    HOWEVER
    What Charlie has to show this year is not just improvement on the field but clearly show his coaching ability. Perhaps that's TS starting as a senior and actually beating ND. Maybe that's making the gutsy call to go with SB a true freshman. Maybe it's actually putting a defense on the field that shows real potential and a squad that goes scorched earth on some opponents this year and punishes them. A young well disciplined football team that doesn't commit stupid pentalies would instill in me a lot of confidence in Charlie.
    This is a complicated equation. Part of the anxiety has to be based on the fear that we sit waiting on Charlie only to have him ultimately fail and we have missed the boat on several great opportunities to get a HC here that could be great (i.e. Herman). Especially if that HC ends up at another school in state. No one wants to be the team that messed around with a failure too long and missed the boat with the great one.

    This season will be a roller coaster. Buckle up.
     
  28. Creek

    Creek 1,000+ Posts

    I'm just replugging in -- all I know is Swoopes looked bad in Spring. I think we've known for the last 2 years, he certainly isn't a UT caliber QB..if he starts then Strong is a massive disaster.
     
  29. dukesteer

    dukesteer 5,000+ Posts

    I am always uncomfortable when rational arguments are attacked on the expressed or implied based of a personal dislike of the individual. I agree with virtually every point that BA has made and frankly, we -- all of us -- can only form opinions based on past performance and indications of what may be from the materials available on the Internet.

    Perhaps my character is flawed but I too will blow a gasket if Swoopes trots onto the field first. In fact, my prediction is that many in the crowd and not just a few dozen will be mumbling under their breath, and holding their breath. What they say about investments -- that "past results may not be indicative of future performance" -- usually does not apply in football.

    I am also troubled by what has been reported about Gilbert's perspective on the QB decision, and his declaration (if reported accurately) that he will not look at past year's film to make an assessment of the player. While not a perfect analogy, I'll go there anyway: Can you imagine hiring a school bus driver without examining has past driving record and doing a background check? How the heck can any coach declare that he will not take past performance into account when making such an important decision. I don't get that.

    Hey, this could be much ado about nothing and a smoke screen if the Babers report is accurate. I freakin' hope so because I don't want to blow a gasket at DKR on 9/4/16.
     
  30. Statalyzer

    Statalyzer 10,000+ Posts

    Anyone who isn't shifty in the pocket would have been screwed at QB in that game. Our OL made the Irish DL looks like 4 Ndamukong Suhs.
     
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