Chris Warren & Kyle Porter.... (Updated)

Discussion in 'On The Field' started by Godz40acres, Sep 19, 2017.

  1. Godz40acres

    Godz40acres Happy Feller

    I'll add Kyle Porter's video when I finish it. ITM, here's every play in which Chris Warren was involved during the USC game.

    Out of 27 blocking assignment plays (including a couple of chip-and-go's) I saw two whiffs and a questionable. I'm sure you guys will find more; I was too busy editing to notice much detail.



    My main fault with Warren's blocking is that, when he's in the pocket, his base is too upright leaving him with little leverage. I think Porter is a better pass blocker from watching all three games this season. He "attacks" in way Johnathan Gray did during his senior season.

    Okay, here's Porter. Like I said above, I like his attacking style as a blocker.



    Maybe the coaches do trust Warren as he appeared to play twice as much as Kyle in this big game.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  2. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I don't have a problem with technique (I'll review that when and if he gets a block), it is his inability to read the defense and adjust accordingly. I didn't even want to recruit Porter, and am stunned at his ability to block, since I never saw him do that at Katy. Since both played for Strong & then Herman, I am left with no alternative than to believe Gary Joseph taught Porter to read and block.
     
  3. Dionysus

    Dionysus Idoit Admin

    He was too busy scoring TDs and winning a state title.
     
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  4. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 10,000+ Posts

    True, plus he had a pretty good OL.

    :beertoast:
     
  5. Dionysus

    Dionysus Idoit Admin

    Indeed he did. He might still become a productive back for us. I would love to see Carter and Young get some meaningful reps next week. Competition makes competitors better.
     
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  6. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 10,000+ Posts

    The 3.9 ******** bothers me. That's only 4 carries. Give Warren 15 carries behind our OL, against the USC defense, and maybe he has 60 yards, maybe he has 25 yards, or maybe he rips a big one and has 100 yards. We can only speculate, but with piss poor blocking, I"ll vote for option #2.
     
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  7. X Misn Tx

    X Misn Tx 2,500+ Posts

    what i think is that coach herman and coach beck have real biases that play out in stressful situations. i think they are pass happy. when in doubt, sling it. i think his answer was honest, and telling of how his bias affects bias his judgment.

    it's not terrible, but i think it's something that he's going to have to realize about himself.

    i think that about his going for it on 4th down too. for all of his binders, he's just a crazy go-for-it on 4th down guy.

    he's still young, imo.
     
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  8. Detective Shilala

    Detective Shilala 2,500+ Posts

    ^^^
    This. This is exactly what backs like Warren can do. They wear down a defense. Feed him the damn ball, and the longer the game gets, the better he will get.

    That 3.8 yards looks pretty damn promising to me. Lets see how the the linebackers and safeties like trying to stand him up late in the 3rd and 4th quarter.
    I would even bet that the shaky OL would have found their confidence and looked much better had they been able to do more run blocking with Warren doing his work

    The pass blocking is a liability though. And its apparent that TH has a hard-on for throwing the ball. And that's cool, unless we keep losing.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
  9. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    The issue as I mentioned earlier is that Herman has a quintessential offensive coordinator mindset. He is all about executing, putting together a plan that optimizes matchups, doing things the way they need to be done. In many cases, he puts form over function - "if we do things the right way, the results will follow, and we don't want to sacrifice that for short-term results achieved the wrong way." In the short term, that makes for some weird and sometimes seemingly indefensible decisions. In the long run, it can certainly pay off if you're trying to install a culture and a process.

    Not saying that's the right approach. I'm just saying that's how he approaches it, and how TB approaches it. So get ready for more. I don't see him approaching games any differently in the future because he believes in his approach. I think it causes him to misuse some personnel this season because he doesn't have the people to run his scheme. Prime example was plugging Sam Elingher into a game plan clearly designed for Shane Buechele.
     
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  10. Detective Shilala

    Detective Shilala 2,500+ Posts

    I have seen plenty of "good" coordinators fail to adapt and get fired. It won't be any different for Tim Beck / Tom Herman.

    Hopefully you are right and its just short term and once he feels like he has his system installed, he'll build on that, and be able to take a more flexible approach to winning football games.

    Otherwise, if this inflexibility / obstinance is just a part of the TH / TB package, its going to cost us some winnable games, even in the long term.

    I think they have already cost us two very winnable games by trying to force round pegs into square holes.
     
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  11. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 10,000+ Posts

    DS,

    I submit to you that the greatest coach of all time in any sport was John Wooden. He won with tall teams; he won with short teams; he won with fast teams; he won with slow teams. Wooden adjusted to his personnel, not trying to adjust his personnel to his system. Coaches that cannot or will not adjust their approach to whatever talent they may have, are doomed to fail, and we have seen plenty of them in college football over the years.
     
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  12. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I don't mean to say that he can't won't adjust to his personnel as a rule. I don't think he's going to say "our RB can't catch the ball, but my plan is to throw to the backs, so we're going to keep doing it whether he catches them or not (for example)." What I mean is more in terms of how he approaches in-game decisions as opposed to "how are we going to game plan with the players we have leading up to the game."

    The much-maligned "binder" is an example. You take the emotion out of the decision by making a choice strictly on the data. Let's say the stats say that if I go for it on 4th and 3, I'll convert 64 percent of the time, and will score 4.8 points per game more. (Completely making that up.) The problem is, you can't do that halfway. If you miss a couple in a row, that doesn't change the data - it's a small sample, that over time should still be borne out all things being equal and the data being sound.

    So when I say they want to stick to the plan, what I mean is that they believe that over time, going for it in certain circumstances, not running against stacked fronts, calling certain packages against certain personnel, etc..., don't tend to be made "by the gut" based on the specific play at that time. It's like playing blackjack. You hold on 17. Always. No exceptions. And if you lose a hand, it's not because you made a bad decision. You know that if you stick with the plan, you'll be right more often than not. And if those situations all line up in a way that means your stat sheet shows that your RB only got four carries, they see that as "we need to create situations where we can get him the ball in the course of the game plan" - but while the game's going on, the plan takes priority over making exceptions because one guy hasn't touched the ball enough. (Haven't we had this same discussion about every offensive coordinator for the past umpteen years? "WHY DON'T THEY GET IT TO DJ MONROE/DEVIN DUVERNAY/JAMAAL CHARLES/COLIN JOHNSON/ROY WILLIAMS/RICKY WILLIAMS/ETC..." And what was the answer? Major said it, Harsin said it, whatshisname from last year said it, and now Beck is saying it.)

    There are obviously a lot more variables in calling a football game, so it's not a perfect parallel. And again, I think certain tendencies and thought processes need to be different in (for example) the red zone, or inside the 5, or inside your own 5 or whatever. Because each situation introduces variables that are different and should be accounted for.
     
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  13. Statalyzer

    Statalyzer 10,000+ Posts

    I agree. The small sample size makes the insistence on the average ludicrous. It would be like letting a QB only pass 4 times, and if he goes 2 for 4 then repeating "we can't let the guy throw, he only completes 50% of his passes!"

    True, but OTOH there's a time to realize when your plan isn't working but some particular play or player is. Remember the 2002 OU game? We were up 17-11 in the middle of the 3rd quarter when they figured out we couldn't stop the delayed handoff to Quentin Griffin, and proceeded to run either that exact same play or something very similar to it on at least 1/3rd of their snaps from then until the rest of the game and ended up putting up 24 additional points in the final quarter and a half to win the game.
     
  14. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Here are his carries isolated

     
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  15. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Yeah I think one of the problems was it took us a LONG time to get to the part about finding something that's working. As it turned out, the answer was "throw the ball to Collin Johnson and Amanti Foreman," and that's pretty much what we did in the fourth quarter.
     
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  16. dukesteer

    dukesteer 5,000+ Posts

    This is the textbook definition of "coaching."
     
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  17. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Warren pushed people forward every time. 3.8 ypc is pretty close to 4ypc. That is not bad when your line is not opening any holes. That is a fact. He had no hole. He was hit at the los every carry and still picked up yards.
     
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  18. Godz40acres

    Godz40acres Happy Feller

     
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  19. BabHorn

    BabHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Couldn’t find this article in the online edition of the AAS. Danny Davis in the 09/22/17 print edition wrote this about the OC and his thoughts on Warren:

    Guess we will see more of a running game vs ISU next week.
     
  20. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    It's like I've been saying, with very few exceptions, OC's don't like to impose their gameplan on equal competition. It's an automatic decision that if a defense does X, we do Y. For them to get out of that mindset is a near impossibility. The only ones who don't do it are the ones that go into a game saying "our identity is X and we're not changing for anyone." Or, "We suck at Y, so there's no point trying it even if the other team isn't guarding it."
     
  21. AC

    AC 2,500+ Posts

    I am no OC but if Texas can wear down an 8-9 man front either QB could and would take advantage of man to man against our receiving core. That is what we all want to see. As long as they keep teaching Chris Warren how to pass block and play better without the ball he will likely see more carries like D'Onta Foreman did in 16'. I am confident the offense will improve. As long as the OL does not get any thinner than it already is. If the defensive effort is still there against Iowa St and they do commit to the run more in that game it will be a sign that they are getting an offensive identity to match the physical defensive identity. We all agree the offensive identity needs to be more physical. I think depth at OL prevents that especially against really talented teams like USC. Hoping we see more physical play very soon. Hold on and be patient. Texas is improving and we have less to work on than last year. But with depth at OL being such an issue this early in the season, I am glad we have the receivers we do. I think we run on weaker teams and throw on stronger teams this year out of necessity.
     
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  22. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    "Beck conceded the play-calling for UT’s running game has been inconsistent. He said, however, that Warren had become a “marked man” and that USC was stacking the box in an effort to stop him."
    The more I hear from TH and Beck about why they didn't use Warren the more confusing it gets. So if USC stacks the box and Warren is STILL getting 3.8ypc (dam'n near four ypc) then what is the problem? That works pretty well and it keeps the defense honest so they don't kill Sam with sacks and load up to stop the pass.
    There were many times when I would have killed to see 3.8 gained. Like in the OT on 2nd and 2 from the 4. And other times as well. this one just sticks in my craw.
    Is Beck just talking in circles here? Hmmmm. Me thinks so.
     
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  23. VYFan

    VYFan 2,500+ Posts

    "Do I contradict myself? Very well I contradict myself."
     
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  24. VYFan

    VYFan 2,500+ Posts

    That's Walt Whitman for you literary guys
     
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  25. LHABSOB

    LHABSOB 1,000+ Posts

    Dang this is a strong thread. Enjoy the debate and seeing the fire come back into Hornfans board and members. I gotta tell you there has been more banter and educated debates on here after this USC loss than I have seen in a while.
     
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  26. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    I think you are dead on with your assessment ProdigalHorn.

    I actually don't think Warren is in condition right now to wear down a defense. I believe he'd wear down before them. After he got hurt last year, even before the season was over he ballooned up with bad weight. I sit at mid field second row and I would see him and it wasn't a pretty picture. He's much better now, but I don't think his conditioning matches the others on the field. I don't watch the practices but in games he half asses when blocking like he's saving himself for when he runs. Just my opinion.
     
  27. ViperHorn

    ViperHorn 10,000+ Posts

    A mystery for the ages. There had to be something else going on. I guess we will find out at the end of the season when Warren either goes pro or changes schools.
     
  28. X Misn Tx

    X Misn Tx 2,500+ Posts

    i'm betting they have a hard time depending on the run game when they feel stress.
     
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  29. dukesteer

    dukesteer 5,000+ Posts

    Probably true.

    We have sliced and diced this subject nonstop since Saturday. So has virtually every journalist that covers Texas. No one has an explanation.

    When has almost 100% of the contributors to this Board ever agreed on anything? Almost never. But in the case of the Warren usage discussion, I'm not sure that I have seen one desenting post.

    I am convinced that this isn't about blocking, reading defenses, conditioning (only 4 carries?), attitude, fumbling, running too upright, facing 8 in the box, a depleted O-Line or anything else. This is about philosophy, and our offensive philosophy relative to how Warren and the running game was used was severely flawed.

    I just hope that Beck and Herman learned from Saturday. Judging from his defensive and evasive posture in the PC Monday, I have my doubts.
     
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