Politics and Religion

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Mr. Deez, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I saw this on Facebook and thought it was an interesting point. Is this true? Is it possible to have a civil discussion about politics or religion?

    FB_IMG_1524566996373.jpg
     
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  2. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    Of course it is possible. The lack of face to face communication (read social media) makes the task significantly more difficult because it only takes one keyboard bomb-thrower to ruin a good healthy group discussion.

    And then after being conditioned to social media's standards of discussion, the level of civility is too often eroded and degraded when face to face conversations occur. I'm becoming convinced humanity would be much better off not having unfettered 24/7 access to whatever minor news stories occur halfway around the country (or the planet), simply so they don't have so damned much picayune crap to become outraged about.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  3. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    There's an employee at work who is a staunch democrat and proudly part of the "resistance". She knows I voted for and support Trump. We used to talk a lot, but, like a lot of the country, she has become more radicalized, or at least more pro-active. Now, if I stop by to say "hi", after the perfunctory niceties are over, she immediately launches in on whatever Trump has done to piss her off lately. I've told her several times, perhaps you and I shouldn't talk politics, we're never going to agree on anything. Doesn't seem to phase her at all. I mostly don't go by there anymore. I don't have the time or energy to get into a political debate with her and we'd just agree to disagree.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  4. Dionysus

    Dionysus Idoit Admin

    I think a fundamental challenge with these kinds of discussions is that our egos — even our very sense of identity — is often bound up in our views. Conservative, Liberal, Christian, etc is not just a position or belief we hold, it is a part of who we are. It is personal.

    So it becomes very difficult to be objective and open-minded when a contrary view is perceived as a personal affront or attack. People end up feeling they have to defend themselves rather than an objective worldview. We like to be right.

    That’s how it appears to me anyway.
     
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  5. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 2,500+ Posts

    An "objective worldview"? Most liberal arguments don't involve objectivity. The way to overcome the idea of a "view" versus reality is to present facts. Empirical evidence solves the problem, but only for those willing to recognize the evidence.
     
  6. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I totally understand why you'd take that approach. I'd probably do the same thing, because obviously, you can't let a political disagreement interfere with work. However, I think this sort of conundrum is a bad thing. It keeps us dumber - not you personally but society in general. Furthermore, it also makes us more entrenched in our views, so we're dumber but more sure of ourselves. That's a toxic combination.

    You should be able to ask her to specify what about Trump bugs her and kindly and respectfully make her defend her position. If she says, "he's a racist," you should be able to ask her what "racism" means, why it means what she says it means, and what policies he has advocated that conform to her definition. And of course, she should be able to do the reverse to you. However, I think Dion is correct. Her liberalism probably extends beyond her policy preferences and is part of her cultural identity. That means a disagreement with her politics is going to feel like a personal attack on her when it isn't.

    It reminds me of when I met that former Clinton intern when I was about 21. She was liberal but very smart and intellectually honest. I found that attractive in her, even though her appearance wasn't my style. (She wasn't ugly, but she was bony thin (kinda felt like I was dating Olive Oyl) and had curly hair, neither of which are my preference.) We got along well enough to date seriously, and we kept talking politics during that time. It never got ugly or personal, and sometimes she would flip on a position if I gave her strong enough of a case (affirmative action and vouchers come to mind). She was truly an open-minded liberal. She never got me to flip on anything, but she did make me consider things more carefully and with greater nuance.

    However, this was in the late '90s, and a lot has changed since then. Rabid partisanship and cultural tribalism didn't dominate. Social media wasn't putting us in echo chambers in which we never hear the other side of anything. And of course, we didn't spend our whole lives staring at our phones back then, because smart phones didn't exist. We led real lives in which we interacted with people in person. It's a lot easier to tell somebody that he's a friggin' retard when you're in the comments section on a news story than when he's standing right in front of you.
     
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    Last edited: Apr 24, 2018
  7. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    Pretty much the essence of my post above.
     
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  8. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    I don't think there's any point in discussion. She flat out hates Donald Trump. There is no other way to put it. Whatever he decides is wrong, no worse than wrong. Whatever he decides is because he's a racist, homophobic, SOB who likes to use his power to hurt people who don't agree with him.

    It doesn't matter to her if Obama and other Presidents before him did the same thing Trump is doing. At one point, Obama arrested and deported illegals at a record clip during part of his administration. Obama was against Gay Marriage, until he wasn't. Obama is a saint to this woman. Trump is the Devil. Evil Incarnate.

    I just laugh and walk away when she goes off. I think she's getting the idea that I don't want to hear it. Maybe when her resistance movement triumphs (when Bernie is elected in 2020), we can be friends again, although I imagine my own sphincter will be pretty tight at that point.

    The country is polarized and unless some miracle worker that both sides can trust comes forward, I don't see it changing. Until then, we're just flapping our jaws at each other.
     
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  9. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    There is one more option - booze.
     
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  10. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Kanye just answered your prayer.
     
  11. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I've always thought Kanye West was an obnoxious tool and still pretty much think he is. Furthermore, I don't understand the appeal or why people throw money his way. However, if he helps break the stupid, "everybody has to think the same and dissent can't be tolerated" crap that is taking over the Left and the pop culture, then good for him.

    And that's true regardless of what one thinks of Trump. I'm a frequent Trump critic and didn't vote for him. However, the utter absence of nuance or consideration of facts and evidence that go into the criticism of him by dominant media and entertainment culture is intellectually bankrupt and a danger to liberal democracy and political freedom. That's why guys like Bill Maher and Sam Harris (who are both liberals) can be refreshing at times. They believe in the right to think.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  12. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    Are you suggesting that Kanye is the miracle worker that we all need?
     
  13. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Yes. Let it be done.
     
  14. Bayerithe

    Bayerithe 1,000+ Posts

    the problem is, all the trump haters simply regurgitate headlines and talking points about his character and don't even know any of the actual policies. I messed with someone once, and brought up policies that i pretended were Bernie Sanders ideas once and the guy was like, oh yea, those sound super. then i dropped the bomb ... "What if i told you those were actually trump's ideas?".

    silence.

    :brickwall:
     
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  15. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    This is true, but both sides do that. For example, many Republicans were fine with the individual mandate until Obama started pushing it.
     
  16. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Which Trump ideas? Building the wall is one of the few he's been consistent on.
     
  17. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Good grief:
    - less regulation
    - conservative judges who follow the constitution
    - smarter legal immigration
    - prison reform (almost ready to go)
    - welfare reform 2.0
    - VA reform
    - need I go one?
     
  18. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Christianity is growing so fast in China that the Govt has begun cracking some heads

    " ..... Then there are the house churches, which have increasingly been targets of state persecution. Last Christmas saw the most severe crackdown on Christianity in China in more than a decade. Several churches were closed and approximately 100 Chinese Christians were arrested in Chengdu after government authorities declared their church to be "an illegal organization."

    The police closed a school and a seminary, arrested a pastor, and confiscated Bibles. Other efforts to stamp out Christianity in China include banning online sales of the Bible. Many church elders have gone into hiding. Now Chinese authorities are going from town to town, demanding that Christian icons be replaced with pictures of Chairman Mao Zedong and Xi.

    The ruling Communist party has even embarked on a five-year plan to make Christianity more Chinese, promote socialism, and to incorporate Buddhist and Confucian teachings into Christian scripture. Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J., has accused China of “taking a hammer and sickle to the cross.”...."

    China takes a hammer and sickle to the cross
     
  19. OUBubba

    OUBubba 5,000+ Posts

    I hate Donald Trump and the world that we all created that got him elected. That said, I have many dear friends and co-workers who not only voted for him but will vote for him again given a chance.

    We've created a world where you don't have to hear news or opinions that might point out that you're not 100% correct. We can all comfortably live in echo chambers. That's why I like this place (politics and football). It puts me in a place where I have to evaluate and defend my beliefs.
     
  20. OUBubba

    OUBubba 5,000+ Posts

    - less regulation that we often times needed. See the 2008 financial crisis for the need for some regulatory guidelines.
    - conservative judges who follow the constitution by your reading. Legal scholars point out that some of his judicial appointments border on being laughable. I'll concede that his SCOTUS appointments don't fall into that category.
    - prison reform. Agree.
    - welfare reform. We need to do it for our farmers now. He just played wackamole.
    - VA reform. Whatever. Give the VA everything that they need. Their budget went up 85% under the previous president.
    - you forgot to mention the failure of the tax reform.
     
  21. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    I thought you were still searching for Russian collusion, sort of like OJ looking for the real killer.
     
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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  22. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    What exactly do you mean by its failure?
     
  24. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Ditto. Everybody should do this.
     
  25. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Friend of mine has been going to China for mission work for years, and has some pretty interesting stories. He's been saved from getting booted many times due to the fact that the Chinese officials can't read English, so they have no idea a book is a Bible unless the cover LOOKS like a Bible.

    Basically the people are taught to spy on their neighbors, and so when he has Bible classes in the hotel where he stays, he has to have people come up one or two at a time at intervals, and have them leave by stairways so that they don't arouse the attention of the front desk. Baptisms typically require extended visits to the spa room where water is available for immersion. And even starting a study at all ends up being a series of circular questions and comments in one of the English-speaking areas in the city that typically end up with someone casually dropping a hint.
     
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  26. OUBubba

    OUBubba 5,000+ Posts

    The collusion is already proven. We've just been numbed to it.
     
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  27. OUBubba

    OUBubba 5,000+ Posts

    The predictions were that the cuts would pay for themselves and that it would cut down the deficits by trillions. The opposite appears to have taken place.

    A good summary: Trump tax cuts fail to boost investment or employment but pile on debt

    Investment didn't go up. Debt went up significantly. Rich people got richer. 80% of people will see no change in their income tax on 4/15. My accountant friends are dealing with angry clients who are having to pay more than they have in the past.
     
  28. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    I read corporate R&D at all time high. It takes a 1-2 years before translating to investment.
     
  29. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    I guess there is no hope for Trump’s re-election.
     
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  30. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Agreed - Hillary colluded wth Russia.
     
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