5 STAR 4 STAR 3 STAR....HUTHUT! HERE'S MY TAKE....

I know I'm not popular with my anti-Hager/Gideon/sometimes Colt bashing, but here's where I'm coming from. Everyone loves the guy who does more with less, has heart, gives it all he's got, etc etc etc. I don't love those guys unless they're surrounded by superior talent (5 star 4 star) because, by himself and others like him, we're an 8-4 team at best, and, the three years Charlie was here, sub 500. Someone can probably try to prove me wrong with data from the last 20 years, but for every 3-star guy out there making plays on a conference champion, there were 3-4 higher star players on that team helping him look good. That guy's by himself, losing record... Donta Foreman, great running year, we're 5-7. He was our offense. Blake Gideon, qb of the defense, 5-7. Don't get me wrong, I "love" those guys too, but if I you anyone wants a natty, they can't be "the" guys on your offense or defense. Any coach starts loving him some three stars, his season will not end in a conference title much less a national title. If you want constant 8 & 9 win seasons, just email Herman and tell him you want more like Breckyn Hager, more Blake Gideons, more Colt McCoys, and you can get 2nd and 3rd and 4th place finishes in the Big 12. You want to compete for THE PRIZE, go find the second coming of Vince.

 

I’m not sure which Colt McCoy you’re talking about. Is it the one who was a five-year quarterback who went 45-8 in 53 career starts ... his No. 12 jersey was retired on Oct. 30, 2010 ... his 45 victories are the most in NCAA history bettering Georgia's David Greene (42-10) ... UT's only two-time All-America quarterback ... a two-time Walter Camp Football Foundation Player of the Year ... the 2009 Maxwell Award (collegiate player of the Year), Davey O'Brien Award (nation's top quarterback) and Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award (nation's top senior quarterback) winner ... a 2009 unanimous first-team All-America selection ... the 2009 Big 12 Offensive Player of the Year ... only QB in NCAA history to win 10 or more games in four seasons ... UT's first ever four-time team MVP ... three-time bowl game Offensive MVP ... his three Bowl wins are a UT best and tied for the second most by a starting QB in NCAA history ... four-time first-team Academic All-Big 12 ... three-time All-Big 12 quarterback ... has completed 1,157-of-1,645 passes (70.3%) for 13,253 yards (No. 1 on UT's all-time list) and 112 TDs (No. 1 on UT's all-time list) against 45 INTs for a passer rating of 155.0 (No. 1 on UT's all-time list) ... his 70.3 completion percentage is just shy of the NCAA all-time mark held by Hawaii's Colt Brennan (70.4%) ... finished his career ranked sixth in NCAA history with 13,253 career passing yards, fourth in total offense with 14,824 yards, seventh in TD passes with 112 and sixth in TDs responsible for with 132 ... the first Texas QB to pass for over 10,000 yards ... also rushed for 1,571 yards (No. 3 on UT's QB rushing list) and 20 TDs ... holds 47 school records (career (16), single-season (13), single-game (five), freshman (six) and miscellaneous (seven)) ... holds school records in wins (45), completions (1,157), attempts (1,645), TD passes (112), passing yards (13,253), total offense (14,824), TDs responsible for (132), passer rating (155.0) and completion percentage (70.3%) ... his single-season marks include TD passes (34), TDs responsible for (45), passing yards (3,859), most plays (599), completions (332), attempts (470) and completion percentage (76.7%) ... has rushed and passed for a TD in the same game 14 times ... is the only quarterback in UT history to post four seasons with at least 2,000 passing yards and 20 TD passes ... his 61 TD passes in 2008 and '09 are the most in consecutive years in UT history ... threw a TD pass in 48-of-53 games and at least two TD passes in 35 games ... threw a TD pass in 29 consecutive games which is the UT record ... threw for at least 200 yards 38 times, which ranks first on UT's all-time list ... threw for 300 yards 15 times, which ranks first on UT's all-time list ... produced 84 plays of 30 yards or more, 35 of 40 yards or more and 22 of 50 yards or more ... holds four of the top eight UT single-season marks for total offense (No. 1, 4,420, 2008; No. 3, 3,869, 2009; No. 4, 3,795, 2007; No. 8, 2,740, 2006) ... is the first player in UT history to record at least 2,500 total yards in four seasons ... notched 27 games of at least 300 total yards ... tallied five games of at least 400 total yards ... went 332-of-470 (70.6%) for 3,521 yards and 27 TDs for a 147.4 passer rating, while rushing for another 348 yards and three TDs in 2009 ... finished the season ranked first nationally in completion percentage (70.6%), 16th in pass efficiency (147.4), 25th in passing yards per game (251.5 ypg) and 17th in total offense per game (276.4 ypg) ... the 2009 Walter Camp Football Foundation Player of the Year ... the 2009 Maxwell Award (collegiate player of the Year), Davey O'Brien Award (nation's top quarterback) and Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award (nation's top senior quarterback) winner ... a 2009 AFCA and WCFF first-team All-America selection ... the 2009 Big 12 Offensive Player of the Year ... also a finalist for the Manning Award (nation's top quarterback after the bowls), Campbell Trophy (formerly Draddy Trophy) which recognizes all-around excellence on the field, in the classroom and in society, the Wooden Cup and the Lowe's Senior CLASS Award ... completed 332-of-433 passes (76.7%/first NCAA) for 3,859 yards (No. 1 on UT's all-time list) and 34 TDs (No. 1 on UT's all-time list) (eight INTs) for a passer rating of 173.8 (third NCAA) as a junior ... the 2008 Walter Camp Football Foundation Player of the Year, Sporting News Co-Player of the Year and Chevrolet NCAA Offensive Player of the Year ... a consensus first-team All-American ... was the runner-up for the Heisman Trophy ... a finalist for the Maxwell Award, the Davey O'Brien Award and the Manning Award ... tabbed Big 12 Offensive Player of the Year by The Associated Press, Austin American-Statesman, Dallas Morning News and San Antonio Express-News ... set the NCAA single-season record for completion percentage at 76.7% in 2008 ... also led the team in rushing with 561 yards and 11 TDs ... was one of only two QBs nationally that passed for over 3,500 yards and rushed for over 500 ... completed 156-of-204 passes (76.5%) for 1,713 yards and nine TDs, while rushing for 96 yards and four scores, in five games against Top 25 opponents ... went 42-of-52 (80.8%) for 331 yards and 20 TDs (two INTs) in the red zone ... completed 276-of-424 passes (65.1%) for 3,303 yards (No. 4 on UT's single-season list) and 22 TDs (T-No. 6 on UT's single-season list) for a passer rating of 139.2 (24th NCAA) in 2007 ... earned Holiday Bowl Offensive MVP honors ... a first-team Academic All-Big 12 selection ... named to the Big 12 Good Works team ... started all 13 games in 2006 as a redshirt freshman ... a Davey O'Brien Award semifinalist ... recognized as Sporting News' National Freshman of the Year ... named the Big 12 Offensive Freshman of the Year by the league's coaches and the Big 12 Offensive Newcomer of the Year by The Associated Press ... earned second-team All-Big 12 honors ... became the first freshman QB in UT history to win 10 games ... his 29 TD passes set a UT single-season record and tied the NCAA's single-season freshman mark ... gained valuable experience running the scout team while redshirting in 2005 and had the opportunity to be tutored by Vince Young during the National Championship run that year ... one of UT's most active community service participants who was selected to the Allstate AFCA (2008) and Big 12 (2007) Good Works teams ... was an all-state football and basketball player and a regional qualifier in track and field as a prepster ... served as his team's punter in high school ... drafted with the 20th pick in the third round (85th overall) by the Cleveland Browns in the 2010 NFL Draft.?
That Colt McCoy?

 

Know how I know you never played the game?

 

I get it Zucker... it's Charlie's fault that Colt was never any good.

 

Bingo you’re right! So now I can’t post because you played in junior high or high school? Tell me you were a three star all American in college and led your team to a natty!

 

No, it’s your fault for wanting

No it’s yours and the people like you that only want a national championship won by the slowest smartest players.

 

Chango unchained! Didn’t one of those records get broken by that negative 2 star from Boise state?

 

Bashing heroes who gave their all for Texas will make you unpopular. No point being a jerk. Star ratings are an estimate from a journalist. Some 3 star guys, Brian Robison and Sam Acho come to mind were evaluated correctly by our coaches and incorrectly by Ketch and company. The NFL liked those guys and Colt too.

 

Ok Zucker, come clean.
You're drunk tonight aren't you.

 

Unfortunately, MD, I was not. I know it’s human nature to root for the underdog. My central point is that for every Colt and Gideon etc that excelled, those players were surrounded by 4 & 5 star talent. I still don’t have an answer from anyone (Statalyzer could figure it out?) of a team in the last 20 years (rivals stats?) that won their conference and played for the national championship. Only power 5 because the also rans may have done well but played a non power schedule against other threes. Maybe I’ll drink some today.

 

Ok Crockett I hear you. Point is that those two were surrounded by better talent as well if they were winning titles. Apologies I just get wound up on and focus on some negative times in Texas football and don’t let it go.

 

Ironically, if Blake had not dropped that sure game-winning INT, Colt would not be on your list.

 

AB, I know I responded to your statement, which has now been shortened, and my pointed reply is somehow gone. Some here have obvious x’s and o’s experience, but it wasn’t until yesterday that someone (you) brought that up as a “I just know more and you can’t possibly get it right because you didn’t play”. I know the way I argue can rile up some here, and I’ll try to ratchet it down to show respect. Would appreciate in the future not using the discussed angle in the future. Make your point with facts about what we’re discussing, please.

 

I’m sure Blake Gideon gave 100% to Texas in his time here. I just wish he was the exception and not the rule when it comes to recruiting results. My point is that when he’s the go to guy on defense, Texas is in trouble.

 

I understand what you meant by him; I'm just saying Colt didn't belong on your list and that Blake's drop greatly impacted Colt's legacy because had we won that game, we would have been in the National Championship game (if memory serves me correctly). We would have been undefeated.

 

I agree with the OP in theory. You need a superstar to reach the peak. Colt McCoy was a superstar! The data below proves this point.



Heisman Trophy Finalists Since 1998

Texas:

1998 - R. Williams (WINNER)
2005 - V. Young (2nd)
2008 - C. McCoy (2nd)
2009 - C. McCoy (3rd)

Oklahoma:

2000 - J. Heupel (2nd)
2003 - J White (WINNER)
2004 - A. Peterson (2nd), J. White (3rd)
2008 - S. Bradford (WINNER)
2016 - B. Mayfield (3rd)
2017 - B. Mayfield (WINNER)
2018 - K. Murray (WINNER)

I estimate that each Heisman Finalist generates roughly 2.5 seasons of quality (10+ wins) football. That means in the last 21 seasons, Texas has had 10 quality seasons (sounds about right), and OU has had 20 quality seasons. Not trying to praise OU, but I believe there is a strong correlation.

I do believe that Sam E. will be a Finalist next year.

No surprise that Heisman caliber players lead to more team wins. They elevate the players around them.

 

Zucker...I'm just going to point out one simple flaw with your 'philosophy.'

There is no ONE player on a team. They call it a TEAM for a reason. It is about a COLLECTION of TALENT. If you had ever played a team sport, football or otherwise, you SHOULD have realized this.

And, TALENT is NOT what rating some hack with a history of getting things wrong but still collects magazine sales makes of a high school player.

 

Good points.

 

Nice post!

 

Very good points, MB! I’ll only add that, just like the recruiting services get it wrong at times, many times they are also correct about the better/best players. Also to your point, I agree there needs to be chemistry that holds a team together as well despite “talent level”. I think Texas and Oklahoma both could’ve folded the tents this year at any time and both did not.

 

I agree with the problems with the recruiting ratings; except for Alabama's players!

Check out this recruiting class of ours from 2014 which overall was rated too high (even at 20th) especially with the 4-stars.

Orangebloods.com

23 commitments
Six 4-star players; none of whom made a name for themselves
D'Onta and Poona gone to the pros; great recruits; 2 and 3 stars respectively
Beck still with us along with a couple of others
The rest? What a bust

We were ranked 20th in recruiting with this class. This is four years later and we're getting almost nothing out this class.

 

In any given year there are about 30 5'star kids, about 200 4'star guys and about 500 3'star guys.

If you took all the 5'star guys and gave me the pick of all the 3'star guys, I'd win that game every year. Chances of those 5 star guys being impact player are really good, but the chances of finding one of those 3 star being an impact out of 500 is also really good. There is literally no difference between being a high 3'star and a low 4'star. JJ Watts was a 2'star. I know that he is supposed to be the exception and not the rule but when you have a choice of 500 different 3'star guys you are going to find a few of those exceptions.

The real problem with the 5'star guys is that they all think they are god's gift to football and most come in with an attitude and chip on their shoulder. They all think they are destined to be in the Pro Football HOF. When they aren't made the starter or focal point of their team, they aren't equipped to handle the adversity and they pout, or just quit.

3'star guys generally come into college ready to work hard and do what it takes to compete. They know they aren't the best but are more willing to put in the work to be the best. They are fighters, and I'll take a fighter every time.

Every successful team has a good mixture of all levels of athletes. Even Alabama has 29 out of 85 scholarships are guys who were 3'star or 2'star athletes.

 

Good stats. Read into that post that Alabama has 56 5s n 4s out of 85. That’s just under 70% of the team....

 

Texas has signed 55 4'star or higher athletes over the same time span.

 

So.... how 'bout that coaching?

 

Saban is a freak of nature....

Tide turning staggering number of 5-stars into first-round picks

 

I am more convinced that the same formula for developing a strong football program is the same formula that creates great franchises.

It's all about a consistent process. Tom has talked a lot about what he learned from being around Saban was the culture and process that Saban has developed as being the difference.

If Herman can create the process then everything else will begin to take care of itself. That starts with rules, a good strength program, and player development. You get those things in place and consistent winning will begin to take care of itself.

I know that Herman is a good offensive mind and he has a good set of coaches, but the process is the big thing, next year and the following year are what we need to really look at. If he is got his process in place the superior development should really start to show itself.

 

Who are you even arguing with here? Is there someone out there campaigning for passing up 4 and 5 star players?

 

It's the frustration of not getting better recruits and the ones that are rated better not getting coached up. I understand 3s outnumber the 4s and 5s but the services can't always be wrong....

 

Really? Is our current class chock-full of scrubs or something? What have I missed?