Next man/woman up ! or should I say OUT !.....

I might be misunderstanding what you are trying to convey. Are you trying to stifle our discussion on this subject? Don't you or someone else usually create threads to discuss the upcoming game, in-game discussion, and post-game discussion? What am I missing?

I'm trying not to be rude, but if this topic doesn't interest you . . .

 

They were games that we were expecting to win just like these last two and they adequately reflect exactly what we are talking about - we’ve had little consistency under Karen.

 

Lots of fair thoughts. I had those same thoughts upon her hiring.

But, I was wrong, She did "succeed". I listed her 5 year stretch of success at Texas, better than any stretch under Goestenkors or Conradt in the last 30 years. That's success.

She did "get it done" at Texas despite her lack of head coaching experience. She won after a rough first season. She made us relevant nationally again. She had elite recruits from coast to coast visiting Texas officially.

Did she maintain what she built? No.

Did she win conference championships? No. Did she overtake Baylor for conference supremacy? No. Let's be real; she was competing against a Hall of Fame and two-time national championship head coach whose foundation and recent successes were light years ahead of what Karen inherited at Texas. It's not like she was handed the same exact deck of cards to begin a battle with Mulkey; Karen had to play catch-up in every way at a time when Mulkey had already reached the summit twice. Did she reach a Final Four? No. Did you/I expect her to achieve any of those milestones when she was first hired? No, we didn't. We didn't develop those expectations until Karen achieved an Elite 8 in Year 4, and when her recruiting (on paper) soared. And, speaking for myself, my heightened expectations were due to Karen's success on the court and in recruiting.

 

If we were going that route with the money we’re capable of offering, I’d hope we would target someone like Cheryl Reeve or Pokey Chatman. If it’s not either of those two, I’d rather stay in the college ranks. It requires a certain type of skill set. And Stephanie white at Vandy is showing us that just because you can win in the NBA doesn’t automatically translate into college

 

I absolutely agree with many of the things you said. She did make us relevant again, and she did recruit extremely well. BUT.....she had an incredible opportunity to grow and evolve as a coach, hire capable assistants, and either through her own hard-headedness, arrogance, or insecurities, refused to do so. That to me is the truly sad part, and has ultimately led to not only the decline you currently see, but her undoing in general.

She had the talent to do better and STILL DOES. When you recruit to the level that she did, there are expectations, and IMHO her results fell short. Player development is another key area that was lacking, Those shortcomings, along with the constant in and out routine, thus ultimately affected recruiting. Apparently, Didi Richards saw that very thing and decided on Baylor because the revolving door at the scorer's table didn't appeal to her. I absolutely appreciate her hard work ethic and recruiting, but it ultimately comes down to consistency and results......

 

I'm not debating any of that.

I'm debating your prior comments regarding your contacts who claimed that when Karen was hired that she would NEVER "succeed" or "get it done" at Texas. The results in years 2-6 completely contradict those predictions.

It seems like Karen became a victim of her own success as her steady post-season success and recruiting results (on paper) raised expectations for more growth (in all areas). But, the buck stops with her to maintain (if not surpass) her success as she entered years 7 and 8 at Texas; that's where we are right now.

 

I'm not debating period. Your perception is exactly that.... Mine is obviously somewhat different. I gave her credit for the things she did, but ultimately, she underachieved with the talent she had and still has!!!

And no, I don't necessarily think the person who told me she wasn't the answer was wrong. What he said was true. I don't think she is a good coach. IMO he was spot on. I think the results you saw were because of the talent level we had at that particular place in time. When we had the opportunity to really beat Baylor and assert ourselves, we failed. I think the same things myself and others have alluded to played a big factor in that failure....i.e. lack of adjustments, no effective half-court offensive strategy or schemes, revolving door at the scorer's table, etc. Bottom line is her era at Texas is most likely over. If it's not, then CDC obviously doesn't care about WBB....

 

When is that not the case everywhere? That's like saying Mulkey won her first national title because she had Sophia Young.

The results we saw were because Karen was able to sign Brooke and Ariel, and they helped the turnaround quickly, and steadily for all four years at Texas.

 

My bottom line is that we obviously peaked out with that 2016 season, and since then the trajectory of the program has been on a gradual downhill slope. It's time for a change IMO before it slides to the point of no return -- if that isn't already the case.

 

At a place like FSU? You say that as if it’s not a high profile school

 

So you think that Florida St. is a high profile wbb job? And if you think so guess who’s responsible for that. The state of Florida has produced some great players but not in bulk on a consistent basis like California or Texas. Which means that Sue has to recruit nationally and delve into the transfer market in order to field the types of teams that she’s had.

 

I'm staying out of this conversation (for the most part). It is clear that almost all the posters on this board consider Karen gone. I'm not so sure of that at all. The conversation is interesting, but it does read like a post-mortem analysis. I appreciate Mooooooo's pointing out that most of our McDonald's A-A players should have had an asterisk by their name for some problem or injury or qualifying factor. It's interesting, all these brilliant AAU minds who knew Karen couldn't cut it. One person who was thrilled with Karen's hiring was Jody. Not that I talked to her, but I inferred that from certain quotes in the paper. (She likely had something to do with the hiring behind the scenes.) Of course, just because she thought that doesn't mean she was right. Sometimes K.A. seems to me just to be a carbon copy of Jody.

 

I don't recall where I read/heard this, but I do recall that the supposed reason why Karen left Jody's staff and immediately joined Mulkey's staff is because Karen asked Plonsky if, upon Jody's retirement, would she be considered as a candidate to replace Jody as head coach at Texas. She was told point plank that Texas didn't hire head coaches with no prior head coaching experience (at a high level of competition). So, Jody didn't have any pull in endorsing Karen as her potential replacement based on Karen's inexperience; but, after Goestenkor's resignation, and the fact that Karen had obtained head coaching experience recently, Conradt probably did endorse her to Plonsky.

 

Everyone has opinions, and of the three so called "brilliant AAU minds" (your words, not mine) I spoke with, one felt she didn't have what it took to not only get Texas to an elite, level, but keep them there. The other two were later on in the process and both felt she missed her opportunity, both brought up the erratic substitution patterns, lack of player development, and both told me that recruiting was about to take a nosedive.....and it HAS!!!! At this juncture, it's apparent that they knew exactly what they were talking about!!!!!

No one except CDC knows definitively what will happen with Karen, but if he was serious about his statement about challenging for conference and national championships, then it's pretty clear what the outcome will be.

 

I don't agree with the carbon copy of Jody posts I frequently see. Frankly, I am pretty sure Conradt would have made a final four at least with the players Aston has had. The last final four team we made had some highly ranked players but not as many or as highly ranked as some of the teams Texas beat to win the Big 12 and make that final four. I am fairly certain Conradt could have taken the reins this season and the team would have several more wins at least.

People may think Conradt's schemes were stodgy and outdated but her teams executed. They were disciplined. Furthermore, Conradt radiated poise and confidence that she could communicate to her team. For better or worse, her players knew their roles on the team. Some were unhappy with those roles, but Conradt took pains to publicly value the roles of players that we as fans did not appreciate because we did not see those players having big roles during games. I have read that Jody could manage large talented rosters. During the years I watched her teams (about 1995 to retirement), she did not have the luxury of deep rosters. She may have used fifteen scholarships but there were always players who played little. I do not recall the constant 'quick hook' or mystifying momentum destroying substitutions that Karen makes. Conradt was a far superior game coach to Aston even though that was not her greatest strength.

 

Just a minor factual correction: The win over Baylor was in 2017, Joyner's freshman year, and you're right that it was probably Texas' best game ever under Karen. It also came on the tail end of a very long win streak after losing to four top-10 teams early in the season. With the Big 12 title in their grasp, though, they dropped 3 conference games in a row: a 1-point loss at Oklahoma, then a 3-point game at home to Baylor, and a 4-point loss at Iowa State.

The team never seemed to regain its mojo of January and early February that season. They lost in the Big 12 tournament quarterfinals to Tynice Martin's tour de force, narrowly survived a 2nd round game at home vs. NC State, and then lost a rather dreary Sweet 16 loss to UCLA.

 

Since someone else brought up a somewhat similar hypothetical the other day, I will post my same reply: In the real world, "other" head coaches DON'T get the chance to coach someone else's recruits (unless it involves a coaching change). You coach the players YOU recruited and signed; it's pretty simple. Frankly, you can't have it both ways.

The last Final Four team we had in 2003 was in large part because of the recruits assistant coach Karen Aston recruited and helped sign for Jody. The reason Jody stepped down 4 years later was because she wasn't coaching at a high enough level, even with good to great recruiting classes (which Karen helped sign), to win at a high rate (as she admitted in her resignation press conference). I don't remember exactly when Aston left for Baylor (and Clarissa Davis joined the staff), but Jody's teams got worse (not better) after Karen's departure.

Do you really believe Jody would have coached Texas to a win against UConn in the Elite 8 game in Connecticut in 2016? That same UConn team who went on to win another national title that season? Not even on Jody's best day would she have been able to pull that off against that UConn juggernaut.

 

I, for one, do not believe Jody would have coached the team any further than KA has. I do agree that JC had more of a presence in her whole sideline persona that MAY have given the players a little more confidence, but speaking in terms of X's and O's IMO you're basically looking at a carbon copy of Jody in Aston.

Aston left for Baylor after the 2005-06 season, and only stayed one year (2006-07) before accepting the HC position at Charlotte. I was PISSED OFF when Karen left for the lateral position at Baylor... not at Karen herself but at Plonsky/Conradt because I knew one or both must had done something to make her leave. She wouldn't have just dumped all the tireless work she put into the Texas program for a lateral in Wacko. I really hate it hasn't worked out better for Karen, but it is what it is and at this point we have to cut the losses and try to save the program from going completely into the shitter.

 

The poor and dispirited performance is nothing particularly new for this team, and I'm reluctant to feed into idle speculation like this, but I will say there was one thing I saw in the Iowa State game that I hadn't seen all season, and which surprised me: Celeste Taylor, who all season long had been very reliable, hardworking and emotionally steady, had negative body language almost the entire game, including in the first half when the game was still very winnable.

Normally I would attribute this to being a freshman or whatever, but Celeste had been so incredibly consistent in her body language and emotional energy all season long, so this really caught my attention. FWIW I did not notice this issue with her in the Kansas game.

 

Did Celeste start against Kansas? I know Joane Allen-Taylor was in the starting lineup in Lawrence, but not sure who wasn't.

 

Interesting thoughts by Ketch on OB today regarding potential WBB coaching hires (if needed). He offers five potential candidates. Three of those have been vetted on this site quite a few times. He offered two interesting new ones that I had not heard of. Both of those are very intriguing. I will leave it up to Mooooo to reveal and opinion on those if he wants.

 

Celeste came off the bench and played fairly well. 15 points and 7 rebounds in 23 minutes ... but she fouled out.

I believe Karen said something after the ISU game about the bad body language (without naming names), and the non-start may have reflected that.

 

Is there anyway to share that post with those of us without subscriptions? Copy paste, or screen capture maybe?

 

The problem with Karen coaching. It's not the 90's no more. 1 defense style and 1 Offense style. It's so easy to scout you like that. Just change your coaching style, and Texas might succeed.
And stop letting J.Holmes shoot from the outside. She look a mess.

 

I am reluctant to copy and paste directly from a paid site. However, i “may” make an exception in the essence of truth as well as interest and of perhaps promoting the other site. I’ll at least post the two intriguing candidates. For ya’lls information......there is almost an entirely different group of posters on OB on WBB. Except for Mooooooo.....and excluding the dust-ups.

 

Here is an edited version. I am not providing the part on the first 3 as there has been enough info on them. Waltz is the preferred as he is listed first. Fortier's resume seems intriguing to me. Guess you'll have to search for that.

"It has been suggested of me that I only comment on the Texas women's basketball program when it loses, which it did again this weekend by 15 points to an unranked team, so I mentioned earlier in the week that I would put together a list of coaches the Longhorns should consider in potentially replacing Karen Aston once the season ends as a show of genuine interest in the program besides being a grouchy critic.

Therefore, here's what I came up with when considering career resumes, recruiting abilities, cost and realism. For instance, I'm not listing Dawn Staley, despite her incredible resume and recruiting chops, because she makes $1.5 million per year and would seem next-to-impossible to steal away.
1. Jeff Walz (Louisville)
2. Brenda Frese (Maryland)
3. Adia Barnes (Arizona)
4. Lisa Fortier (Gonzaga)
Quickie Thoughts: She's another potential rising star at the age of 38, as her Zags are 23-2 this season and ranked among the nation's top 15, which follows a 29-5 season a year ago (the best in school history). Through 2018, she was still making less than $100,000.
5. Sytia Messer (Baylor)
Quickie Thoughts: This one is a total wild card because she's not currently a head coach. Yet, she's regarded as the engine behind Baylor's elite-level recruiting and she obviously would arrive from the program that has dominated Texas for half a generation."

 

I can't imagine that hiring any coach without prior SUCCESSFUL head coaching experience would be an option again. Thanks for posting the list @flash34 . I guess we'll all see how things unfold in the near future.

 

Very true about not getting to coach someone else's players.

Unless your team is truly dominant the way UConn was for years, seeding and matchups can be make or break in the tournament. Would we have been playing in the Elite 8 game against Conn in 2016 with only a little different win/loss schedule? Do I believe Texas would have won more games under Conradt last season? Yes. Would we have won more games this year? Yes, most likely. Despite the talent, the lack of even one truly reliable three-point shooter does complicate things for the offensive schemes.

Recruiting is complicated. The 2005 class ranked #1 in the nation was a complete bust. Bad luck or bad recruiting decisions by the coaching staff? A sudden generational shift for which Conradt was not prepared? The players did no better under Goestenkors. Nor did anyone who transferred become a star elsewhere. Earnie Williams was solid for Texas. I always liked Carla Cortijo and wondered if things might have been any different if she had not been injured as a freshman. It took her a long time to come into her own but she even had a short WNBA stint recently.

Edit: And don't forget how close Conradt's final four team came to beating a great UConn team that had more depth of talent. Geno went to his bench late in the game for a young PF/C. Conradt had no one to spell Stacy Stephens either to keep Stacy fresher or to provide a different match-up.

 

I keep thinking the quote will come to me......but it hasn’t. Thought it was Darrel Royal but checked all his quotes and no. Could it have been about the old Packers coach Lombardi? Help me. The essence was the coach was so good that he would beat you with his players ......or he could take your players and win against you. That is what I was thinking about in this discussion of Conradt and would she have done better. Whoever that coach was that was being discussed, that’s the one I want.

 

Fortier was a long-time assistant to Kelly Graves at Gonzaga. She took over an already strong program from Graves when he went to Oregon. She has taken the program even further than Graves did. Of course this also means she had a lot of years to learn from a highly successful head coach.

If we are looking at mid-majors, I would still take a look to the South Dakota coach! She does have power five experience as an assistant. While a head coach at South Dakota, her teams have played and beaten a number of teams from the power five programs. Only losses this year are to Missouri State and at South Carolina (by 13 points), She signed a new contract in 2019 with an annual salary of $250,000.