And just like that, for me, it's over.

Discussion in 'On The Field' started by OrangeShogun, Jul 13, 2020.

  1. UTLAWMBA1991

    UTLAWMBA1991 25+ Posts

    I have points of disagreement and agreement with you HTown--I do respect you as a fellow alum.

    I do think when fans use melodramatic terms like "extortionists," "communism," and spin dramatic tales of woe, they are feeling threatened by something-- perhaps more related to our volunteer athletes learning to play the larger game better, and not remaining totally confined to the "shut up and play" or "entertain us or else" box where many of our fans seem to want them to remain...

    You also seem to be saying that football is entertainment, and I agree with that. With 500 cable channels and 50 channels of sports at home on a fan's television, there is a huge "free" market of entertainment for any UT fan to choose from. Personally, I think there is way too much money in big college football at taxpayer funded institutions, with the coaches living in mansions, and ticket prices going up so high.

    I agree that if the coaches get too rich, the players get too entitled and self important, tradition goes out the window, and the ticket prices too high, fans are going to choose some other entertainment choice, or maybe go fishing, or hiking, or mountain biking on Saturday fall afternoons (which is a lot healthier anyway.) Fans do not have to buy tickets to see this Broadway show... they can find another show, or create their own show...

    I disagree though that none of the players are putting themselves in danger for anyone but themselves. That's too cynical. I think players like Earl, or now Sam Ehlinger also play for their friends, their families, their teammates, their coaches, their school, their state, for honor, and to share their particular creativity, talent, and art with the world. Kids from poor neighborhoods (Earl, not Sam) with athletic talent play because it feels good to excel and be noticed, and it is a way to achieve, and move forward. There was some truth in "The Blind Side" --that movie was not just all Hollywood.

    With respect to BevoJoe's comments, It's admirable that TCU and USC are getting in academically qualified athletes. 80% of my brain says that all college athletics should be a lot more Ivy League. But the reality is that because of CTE awareness and other football-associated dangers, a lot of wealthier multigenerational academically-achieving families are moving their kids into "safer" sports like soccer.

    UT is not going to win against SEC teams like Alabama, or against A&M (if we ever play them again), or against Oklahoma, by fielding an Ivy League team. And, unless I am mistaken about all of the negative comments I read on this board when Charlie Strong was coaching, UT football fans want to win football games. Period.

    Thus we have an inescapable trade off, because nothing kills off Texas football fans faster than running a perennially losing program. Find the best high school players, and recruit them as they are (and respect that they may have different backgrounds and perspectives, and respect that they may not be motivated exactly the same way you would be motivated), even if they are not highly qualified UT academic applicants at the time UT Football recruits them.

    I'm OK with this, as long as athletic sales proceeds are used to help these young people catch up if needed, and really learn the academics at UT, and the program is working hard to help these students graduate with a meaningful degree. Duke men's basketball runs a perennially winning program and gets many of the best high school recruits in the country--with 97% of its basketball players graduating with a Duke undergraduate degree... Having young people share their athletic talents with fans while in college, and helping them get a good college education at the same time is certainly not impossible...
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  2. IvanDiabloHorn

    IvanDiabloHorn 1,000+ Posts

    No one is feeling threatened. A whole bunch of exes, like me, are mad but not threatened. 90% of my friends are exes and we talk daily, and to a person, are mad about a feckless administration that just totally mishandled this situation.
    Had this group of incompetents been in charge in the seventies, the armadillo would be our mascot, but back then we had adults in charge.
    I would love to negotiate a contract with these people.

    We have a head coach that insulted the fan base as racists and nothing was done to have him apologize to the fans, instead he called the outcome a first step. I take this as a tacit approval of Hermans assessment we are racist fans by the administration. Herman has no moral authority to judge fans or donors on their family or views and was never made to publicly account for his statements. Fail.

    There are times when tough decisions need to be made regardless of the outcomes.
    The correct decision was to drop the hammer on the malcontents and let the chips fall.
    The correct decision would have been to tell each malcontent that as representatives of the University of Texas football team they are required to follow every tradition including singing the non racist “Eyes of Texas” at the end of each game. Failure to do so will result in cancelation of their scholarship.
    The other demands are non starters and should never have been discussed with players. They have an avenue through their student government. They are not a collective bargaining unit in any sense, They are an at will player (employee) that can be terminated. Doesn’t mean they can’t express their opinion, just means there is no duty to negotiate with them and the feckless administration did so instead of sending them packing off to other venues.

    The feckless acting president opines it is obvious to him that black applicants that have the ability to go to any school don’t come here because it not welcoming.
    This feckless acting president has no idea why they chose not to come here, it is not obvious. With the Black programs under Gordon, UT is probably the most welcoming university in the nation, other than historically black colleges.

    I paid a tremendous amount of money to send my two sons to undergraduate and law school at Texas.
    My ancestors arrived in 1884 and the wagon wheel broke in Shiner. The first one in our family graduated in 1972, 88 years later.
    I don’t want hear about a demanded 166 million dollars from people on a free ride being spent on Black recruitment, black community causes and non football scholarships from donors money.
    There is no such thing as systemic racism in this day and age. I grew up in the fifties and sixties and know what racism looks like, 2020 is not it. Any person of any race in this country can lift themselves up in this country. I saw it first hand in Houston with the Vietnamese refugees.

    I do not agree with taking down building names and statues, but I have no problem adding statues and naming facilities after worthy candidates, but they seemed to forget James Street. The feckless administration folded and took down names off buildings, but in their hypocrisy forgot to rename the Malcom X lounge.

    Yes, we are mad but not threatened.

    A lot of us give yearly donations to athletics, school of business, law school, scholarship and estate planning.
    Until there is a change there are no more donations or ticket purchase.

    We will watch and see what happens.

    What happens at Texas changes the world, the feckless administration had the chance to change the world and failed.

    When some one spits in your eye, you don’t feel threatened, you are mad.
     
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  3. Htown77

    Htown77 5,000+ Posts

    "This is my opinion" and "I will not honor the requirements of my scholarship" are two separate things. Also, cancel culture likes to say "free speech has consequences". Well that applies to the athletes too.

    I attended UT in the past 10 years. At freshman orientation they make you attend a seminar on "social justice". Social justice is in fact communism rebranded for the ignorant. There is 0 reason for politics of any kind to be involved in a freshman orientation program. If you think UT is not promoting communism, you are an ostrich with his head in the sand.

    Also, quite frankly, the logic behind the Eyes of Texas complaint is completely flawed. If anything with "white, racist" origins is problematic, we would have to shut down the University of Texas, the Federal Government, the sports of football, basketball and baseball, etc. If someone has a problem with the Eyes of Texas due to its origins, why is he attending UT or playing football at all? We do not do away with those things as they have long stopped being "racist"... just like the Eyes of Texas. As a lawyer, you should be able to see that due to the horrendous logic, the attack on the Eyes of Texas is either the product of bad intentions or just plain dumb. Such attack also undercuts that many of these players are playing "for school spirit or their state"... or that this is even about tackling racial injustice at all.

    This is a very good point. Herman is extraordinarily low class. He made fun of the missouri quarterback. He gave UT fans the finger on national signing day. He seems to be involved in some sort of constant drama with Ohio State/Urban Meyer. Now he insults the fans with out of date and incorrect accusations. He has shown no leadership throughout the past 2 months. Strong may have been the worst as far as wins and loses, but Herman has to be the overall worst coach we have ever had and the first Texas football coach that I have ever let off the field related things affect my opinion of him.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  4. Htown77

    Htown77 5,000+ Posts

    Actually, being a good role model off the field, having players graduate, limiting off the field crime as much as possible, being a classy representative, etc is the minimum a coach should do. UT fans expect a coach to do that AND win. Mack Brown did all the above AND won. Charlie did the above AND did not win. If we were only worried about the above and not winning, there was no reason to fire Mack Brown.

    With Herman, we are not getting that AND lose 4 or more games a year. Neither Herman nor or players are good role models. Herman and our players attack the fans and traditions. Herman and the players are not classy. On top of that, they are 1-3 against OU and somehow manage to lose to at least one 7 loss team a year. That is what makes Herman the worst coach we ever had. No class and managed to lose to TCU, Baylor and Iowa State in the same season... not to mention the Maryland debacles.

    No, the argument has never been "just win period". Additionally, you can comprehend that nothing with Charlie Strong or with any team in Texas history is remotely applicable to "f*** you fans and your traditions". In fact, comparing any of this to Charlie Strong is a very bad comparison and illogical unless you are only focussed on skin color and nothing else.

    Additionally, UT can have standards and win. Stanford, among others, manages to win with standards.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  5. UTLAWMBA1991

    UTLAWMBA1991 25+ Posts

    I agree Mack was a class act, and I was strongly in the keep Mack camp... he continues to show class back at UNC. Mack was great on the alum/BBQ circuit, and good with players at the same time. Herman is flippant and can tick alums off, and probably should not flip the double bird when the cameras are running. Herman is making $5M a year, and has not yet won consistently at UT yet either so has a lot more to prove. Our fans will likely live with some sins though if he starts winning 10-12 games / year fairly consistently...not sure that we will have a season this year though with Covid-19 uncontrolled...

    By making the "just win period" comment, I meant that as a start and basic premise, the football program has to eventually win consistently (an issue that Mack dealt with, somewhat unfairly, at the end of his UT tenure) for the fan base to be at all happy. So we are not realistically going to start recruiting all highly academically qualified football players--but we should respect those we do recruit and try to make sure they get a good education at UT, and respect them as complete thinking people, not just Saturday entertainers... Perhaps you have, but if you volunteer in the public schools some time helping underprivileged kids with academics, it helps you become a lot more aware that many of these players did not start on a level playing field, and have some real reasons for having different perspectives.

    Yes, having standards and winning is the best of both worlds. Duke wins at basketball year after year, and no one says that their basketball players are getting a cheap degree...
     
  6. bystander

    bystander 10,000+ Posts

    :bow:

    If we want to call the players employees and the entire relationship as being governed by a collective bargaining agreement (which it's not) then the bargaining point was before the player signs the offer letter. At any point in the past however many decades, a black player could have refused the scholarship and while putting his hat on, loudly proclaimed that UT was a racist institution. But they didn't do that.

    And it was extortion.

    "DO THIS OR ELSE."

    It's very clear.
     
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  7. moondog_LFZ

    moondog_LFZ 5,000+ Posts

    Why is this thread still going.
    I thought you guys were done.
    Get outa here! ;)

    Well, at least you still provide comic relief. :lmao:
     
  8. UTLAWMBA1991

    UTLAWMBA1991 25+ Posts

    Extortion is a crime typically punishable by jail /imprisonment. Threatening to quit a job, or threatening to not play a game and perhaps void a scholarship, is not a crime in America... didn't Johnny Paycheck sing "Take this job and shove it... I ain't workin here no more..." I don't think he was imprisoned for that line... we used to dance to it anyway...
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  9. UTLAWMBA1991

    UTLAWMBA1991 25+ Posts

    Thread is still going b/c we don't have actual football to talk about...:popcorn:
     
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  10. nashhorn

    nashhorn 5,000+ Posts

    guess I’m naive but I thought that was already true. I love and respect these guys, all of them, and have felt that way as long as I’ve been a fan. But heck, I’m a simple man.
     
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  11. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Johnny Paycheck in real life had a bad temper and went to jail for trying kill someone. Check out wiki:

    “In December 1985, Paycheck was convicted and sentenced to seven years in jail for shooting a man at the North High Lounge in Hillsboro, Ohio; he fired a .22 pistol and the bullet grazed the man's head. Paycheck claimed the act was self-defense. After several years spent fighting the sentence, he began serving his sentence in 1989, spending 22 months in prison before being pardoned by Ohio Governor Richard Celeste.[3]

    Johnny Paycheck - Wikipedia
     
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  12. UTLAWMBA1991

    UTLAWMBA1991 25+ Posts

    mchammer, my hat's off to you--that's a well -- researched response and interesting fact... :hookem:
     
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  13. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    I wonder what life lessons they learned from this affair. I don’t think it’s all good. There is a such a thing as win-win and win-lose. This is somewhere in the middle. And stupid jack-*** Jamail bringing up Trump is definitely win-lose.
     
  14. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Thanks. King of useless info.
     
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  15. UTLAWMBA1991

    UTLAWMBA1991 25+ Posts

    When there is no football, Wiki comes in a close second... :beertoast:
     
  16. UTLAWMBA1991

    UTLAWMBA1991 25+ Posts

    I do agree the team needs discipline... that's the coaches' job to handle how the team members present themselves publicly...
     
  17. Chinstrap

    Chinstrap 1,000+ Posts

    Yea. There are con artists everywhere in our country selling change and making a lot of money doing it. Mostly they are creating change for the sake of change and fixing what isn’t broken. Once their change breaks what was working, they have created an annuity of opportunity for life.Change begets more change. Want an example? Grades 1-12 of public schools.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  18. Statalyzer

    Statalyzer 10,000+ Posts

    I don't think he did this. Sounds like a biased reading of what he said. Almost like you wanted him to be insulting you and so interpreted it to hear what you wanted.

    Nobody spit in my eye.

    False. There was no folding. They made reasonable changes in responses to reasonable requests, and didn't change with regards to the unreasonable request. The field is named after actual people associated with the team now. That's good! We are going to have something in place to honor Julius Whitter now. That should have long since already been done! We're going to do a better job of acknowledging Herman Sweatt - again, should have already happened.

    I get the "oh yeah what about James Street" but you could do that with a lot of places. What about Rene Ramirez? What about Vince Young? Just because we don't have some statue or namesake for every single person one or the other of us might think we ought to, is not an argument against the actual changes.

    With his own team only, he didn't direct it at him. Even Drew Lock himself said if his own coach had done it, he'd be happy that his coach is having fun with the guys.

    How so?

    Because he and his wife were standing up for a woman whose husband was abusive to her while he was a coach at Ohio State. How is that a bad thing?
     
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  19. 4th_floor

    4th_floor Dude, where's my laptop?

    Why give anything to the foundation? There are far more deserving charities out there. But please give a lot less to the foundation if you give to it. UT needs to understand that the alumni are upset about being called racists by the players and head coach.
     
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  20. Chinstrap

    Chinstrap 1,000+ Posts

    The black community has been losing by winning for many years. But that is ok because the liberals and race brokers are making money and buying votes while Blacks are being used as pawns.

    - 30 % of Black homes have fathers
    - Murder by blacks on blacks is through the roof
    - Blacks make up 23% of the DISD and 52% of the suspensions. So they will hire more male black teachers to help enable the misfits to stay in school.
    - Schools like UT will insult Blacks by spending money to make it easier for them to enroll than other students. Does anybody see a need to help first generation Asian students? Why Blacks? Insulting to the race!
    - Employers must hire and promote those with black skin, especially in the public sector
    - Many Black kids are taught at an early age to expect assistance killing their drive for improving their station in life.... welfare in perpetuity.
    - Many people will wonder how much of a Black person’s success was the result of a “wink and a nod”. I know a very highly educated man who will not use a Black doctor for that reason. It’s not fair to hard working Blacks. But then again, who knows?

    I could go on but the bottom line is that the gutless people in power and the liberals are weakening our Black community for their own personal gain. No other segment of our society is treated as bad except those living on Indian reservations. Blacks I knew heretofore were strong hardworking, from two parent families ( most of which had good southern values) and tough enough mentally to overcome a hell of a lot more adversity than any of these cupcakes cry over today. We are breeding weakness and it will not end well.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  21. Run Pincher

    Run Pincher 2,500+ Posts

    I've spent plenty of time volunteering to help and tutor inner city kids and more rural poor white kids and let's get something straight, most of these inner city kids started with a lot more level playing field than the poor whites. They receive handouts and free stuff the white kids only dream about. Most of them have more than I had as a kid. They may be underprivileged compared to you, compared to all the students in fraternities and sororities, compared to all the students living in private dorms and nice condos around campus. But what % of America does this represent? Even the typical UT student is not the typical white American.

    That's the issue I have with the liberal elitists know it all's. They think all white people have the easy path they do. That's the lie the democrats want you believe so they can keep up the race baiting and keep blacks on the plantation voting democratic. There are actually almost twice as many whites in poverty as blacks, but if you listen to the MSM and woke democrats you would think all whites are rich and never experience difficulties in life. Racism will never be eliminated until we all recognize that there are more whites that don't start with a level playing field than blacks.

    Talk about being offended. Do you not think these poor whites aren't offended when they are made to feel like they don't exist and it's only blacks that start off without a level playing field? The difference is what you decide to make of it regardless of how you start off.

    I will also say that I'll still do my best to help all poor people make a better life for themselves regardless of race.
     
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  22. BevoJoe

    BevoJoe 10,000+ Posts

    This...Great point! It's also the free market in action, what ever the market will bear. In the case of football revenue, the amount fans are willing to pay to fill all or substantially all of the seats, will set the price level. I look for them to go up, especially if the team can consistently make the CFPs on an annual basis. But, until this coaching staff shows me something, it is a low probability.
     
  23. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Less than 14% of the USA population is Black. Here are the facts about ethnicity and poverty.
    Ethnicity living below the poverty line(rounded to nearest Whole#)
    Native American 25%
    Black 21%
    Hispanic 18%
    White 10%
    Asian 10%

    Yes there are millions more whites living in poverty than any other ethnic group. The reason for this is that there are millions more whites in the USA than any other single ethnic group.
    The highest rate of poverty is in the Native American community, followed by blacks, as you can see above.

    source: Poverty Facts
     
  24. Run Pincher

    Run Pincher 2,500+ Posts

    I know that. I didn't state my facts to discuss the % of each race in poverty. I stated my facts to show that if you're really concerned about ending poverty, you will have to end poverty for almost twice as many whites as blacks. I'm for helping the most people possible, and that's not a %. But like I stated, I want to end poverty for all, and look at it colorblind.
     
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  25. BevoJoe

    BevoJoe 10,000+ Posts

    I checked the article, but didn't see if Native Americans figures were based on those that live on the Res only, or a combination of both on and off the Res.
     
  26. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    I thought you knew it, but some others may not have. The stats show that three minority groups suffer inordinately high rates of poverty. (And have for centuries.)
    250% higher for Native Americans
    200% higher for Blacks
    180% higher for Hispanics.

    I appreciate your good work. I've done similar outreach and volunteerism throughout my life; as well as various jobs, including private practice as a medical provider for over 30 years, which has brought me face to face with abject poverty, and the massive debilitating effects that generational poverty brings.
     
  27. WorsterMan

    WorsterMan SEC here we come!!

    This is THE best assessment I have seen re: the actions of TH.
     
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    Last edited: Jul 15, 2020
  28. Horns11

    Horns11 10,000+ Posts

    There's zero chance he was talking about fans who aren't racist. None.

    Does Texas have fans who are racist? Yes. Was he calling out the ones who don't fit that description? No.
     
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  29. nashhorn

    nashhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Horns11 you may be correct, don’t want to argue and too lazy to look up exact quote but my memory does not recollect him differentiating the fans in the statement. In mean he didn’t say ‘some of you’ or anything similar as I remember.
     
  30. WorsterMan

    WorsterMan SEC here we come!!

     

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