yeah, yeah, i know. Working at the GAP as a teenager and graduating from the Naval Academy are not the same.. But you get the point. If McCain is using it as a qualification for President, it is fair game to discuss his performance.
Patton wasn't the class goat, but he came very close to flunking out. He was granted a very rare 5th year to graduate.
Soesn't KC's post make the assumption of no preferential treatment and a level playing field? Does KC's experience personally relate to double Admiral Legacy like McCain? Is there ever a situation where the son on an Admiral might be ever given preferential treatment. For the average bloke gaining admission to one of the acadamies is a big deal in and of itself. And yes the attrition rate is high. But not purely because of academics I think KC would readily admit. IF McCain recieved ANY preferntial treatment in admission or during school then KC's assertions are largely muted are they not?
Summer what part of "Is it because of connections? you are damn right." did you not understand. Understanding the system implies that they know the loopholes to get around the toughest problems that face the normal applicants. Not the very least of which is the problem of getting one the prized 10 nominations each Senator/ Representative is allowed to give for the academies. What are those loopholes you ask? Let me provide you some. #1 they can apply for the congresstional district they live in along with the 2 senators of the STATE they live in. *this isnt news, everyone can apply for this way* #2, if they are active military, then most likely their parents are not residents of the state they are assigned to. Thus you get to apply to the congressmen of your PARENTS home state, along with those 2 state senators as well. *um this would be a MASSIVE advantage for these kids* #3 you can apply to the Vice President or President for one of their nominations as well (I honestly dont remember how many there are for each of them). But if you dont think a "Mr. President, my daddy is active duty, stationed at west point, and I have a 3.5 GPA and 4 sport letterman, can you please nominate me?" letter gets sent (if they dont get one of the other 60 nomination spots listed above) you are naive as your posts. *anyone can apply for this as well, however the "active duty daddy or mommy" part would probably grab a little more attention than a random letter* And what exactly is the process I just laid down for you.... oh yeah its called working the system AND GETTING PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BECAUSE YOU KNOW HOW TO WORK THE SYSTEM! and finally- and this is most important, I dont care WHO your father is, the acadamies did not under any circumstances pass someone just because daddy told them to. There are hundreds of incidents of cadets failing 1 class and ONE class only, and being kicked out of West Point. (prior to the 80's) You get all the help you ask for, but you still have to pass the tests yourself, and if you are not a math wiz, those can be a royal pain to pass. You realize MacArthur got into West Point because of his dad right? You know his father, General MacArthur, M.O.H. winner.... Your blind hatred of anything Republican keeps showing the rest of us that you have no freaking idea what you are talking about, but you just keep spouting off about **** you dont know about and act like you have the secret decoder ring to explain it all.
There are a lot more admitted than the congressional appointees. There are a significant number of merit admissions, as decided by the admissions office. My dad was a coach at West Point in the '70s (Pistol Team, which was a varsity sport). He said that if one of the coaches took a name personally to admissions, they would try a little harder to admit them.
I purposly put the MOH awardee part in that line. I am well aware of the instant admission policy for children of MOH holders. However, I dont know if that instant admission policy was around in 1899 when MacArthur was admitted into West Point. But even if that auto-admit policy wasnt around in 1899, the point I was trying to make was that it was his father, a decorated General, who absolutely would have pulled strings to get his son the admission position (if needed). And as for the admission requirements, I know there are other ways to get in, athletics specifically have exceptions, as long as the prospective cadet is able to pass the entrance exams, and the coaches want to go to bat for them. I was trying to point out a huge loophole thats exploited by almost every single military kid who wants to join one of the acadamies. And as a result of that loophole, the military kids get preferential treatment in the admission policy. It just so happens that a lot of the kids who take advantage of it, go to the local H.S. near the schools. And since McCain was the son of an academy grad, on active duty, McCain would have enjoyed the same type of favoritism that any other Navy brat would have gotten. And I am not denying in any way shape or form that his father wouldnt have helped by making sure the right people saw the application, but what father wouldnt do that for his son? His father didnt take McCain's tests for him and give him passing grades. McCain earned those and graduated.
I heard that McCain learned more than the other cadets, but he just kept getting zeros for not turning in homework.
It's no different than if Joe Jamail or Daryl Royal's son or grandson had low grades and applied for admission to Texas. You don't think there's a good chance that kid might get a little extra-preference??
The Naval Academy is a tough school. Harvard Law School is much, much more difficult. McCain was at the bottom of his class; Obama was among the very top of his. It's simply one set of facts that is relevant. Much like it is relevant that McCain has much more experience than Obama in holding national public office. Some voters might value school success more than others; some might value experience more than others. It's all relevant and worth discussion. I don't understand why some people are so defensive and whiny when simple facts like this are brought up. Particularly when the same people are usually absent when threads are posted that continually offer actual lies directed at Obama's past, such as the phony birth certificate claims that have been disproven repeatedly. That is far more outrageous than harping on a fact on McCain's resume.
McCain pokes fun at his clas rank during his town hall meetings all the time. He does not shy away from, he makes light of it...
I play golf with a classmate of McCain. Very successful Navy career officer, long time sub commander and had highly successful post-Navy career. Very good man who likes "Johnny" as they called him at the Academy. He says McCain was a f*ck-up as a midshipmen and went to flight school only on pedigree and not merit. He liked Johnny but said he was not one you would want in a study group.
KC- calm down. And just tell me unequivocally that Mccain did not recieve any preferential treatment or special treatment because he was hoping to be a thrid generation admiral? Can you say this unequivocally? Of course you cannot. I simply raise an obvious question. ALSO - KC what is your explanation for McCain recieving such a sought after assignment as fighter pilot given his low academic standing? Wouldn't that normally be a large part of the qualification process? Best and brightest.... wasn't that the old saying? I don't know for sure one way or the other, and neither do you KC. But it IS UNUSUAL for a bottom of the class student to receive one of the most sought after assignments in the Navy. IF there are not strings being pulled of course.
Being smart these days brands you as a know-it-all elitist who can't relate to the people. God forbid we would actually elect someone smart to be President. What a disaster that would be.
Whoever compared the military academies to the Ivy's as hard to get in but easy to stay in is not correct. There is a ton of attrition and wipe out at the academies, whereas the average ivy league school graduates like 94% of their students in 4 years. This is ridiculous. I had Ivy league credentials and almost dropped out of UT after a year (rebounded nicely and graduated in 3 years, but that's kinda beside the point). I knew a ton of people that dropped/failed out of UT (and a couple from the academies as well) but don't know anyone who doesn't graduate in 4 years from the Ivy's. Stanford didn't even have the option to give a failing grade until 8 years ago or so.
McCain graded out along time ago. He has 40 years or so of more relevant performance to hold out for scrutiny and our attention should be there. McCain's military resume doesn't seem altogether impressive to me. All props for his time in the Nam camps, but getting shot down shortly after starting your tour doesn't really demonstrate any particular acumen. I haven't looked closely at his record, but I am not aware of any marks that suggest that, on its own, his military resume stands out and strains for the White House. He got preferential treatment. Most people who run for president get preferential treatment at some point in their youths. So long as they don't turn around and act like we live in a pristine meritocracy I don't care. Having connections can make you a better product. McCain is not brilliant. You don't have to be intellectually gifted to be effective. There are other kinds of smarts, different sorts of intellectual ability, and a myriad of nuanced talents that can help a person be successful, even uncanny, in various lots in life. Presidential elections are a drag once the negative campaigning starts in earnest. It all a bunch ******** that constitutes opinion, spin, trying to dredge up sound bites that sound bad, that seem irreducible. I mean, it sound bad that McCain finished almost dead least out of nearly 900 other students. Maybe he was a f**k up student. I don't know. Does this in some meaningful way trump his subsequent DECADES of public service? I can't see how. I understand the allure of looking at a guy's transcripts, and I do think that grades can tell you a number of things about a person's academic experience (maybe even something about what kind of a person they were/are), but if I am hiring and spending ANY time looking at grades or class rankings in the stead of DECADES of experience, I am probably not long for my own decision-making position. Negative campaigning is almost always a matter of pushing buttons and inviting people to be intellectually lazy and mean spirited. In my opinion it makes it harder to cultivate an electorate capable of choosing good candidates and office holders. We should really strive to actively eschew attending to this kind of dreck.
It seems that this discussion of how difficult the Naval Academy is, at least in reference to McCain's poor grades, is missing the point because, by all accounts, it was his terrible attitude that got him the poor grades. One man's informed opinion: Link So again, it is just information that a) McCain was a crappy student because he spent his time rebeling against the system a/k/a "******* up"; b) he finished near the bottom of his class; c) there is a belief among many of his peers, at least, that he nevertheless graduated and was given a plum assignment because of nepotism. What a voter makes of this in 2008 is subjective, but these are not false facts that should engender anger from the pro-McCain crowd.
