I think most people realize this which is why they are upset. This administration told us the wild spending and policies caused all of this. I agree with that. However their solution is spending more. I hate that. The defense of them spending on different things does not wash. This bill is a disaster, but Obama has dug in his heels. he owns this, and it will be his undoing.
911 - it's dumb when you don't know where I'm coming from. I'm talking about conservatism as an approach to dealing with this crisis. I'm pretty convinced that the 'do nothing ' approach Republicans stand behind today in dealing with this crisis will be about as effective as how Bush handled another crisis along the Mississippi delta. So again, how much success will it take to render conservatism pointless as an effective solution ? .
It is disingenuous to say that the Conervative argument is to do nothing. Conservatives are in favor of intelligent stimulus that might help the economy but are against social re-engineering masquerading as stimulus. Read here to understand Anyone that raises a contrary opinion, no matter how nuanced, is branded as obstructionist and treated to a lecture on our impending doom. There has been a noticeable an really clumsy effort to squelch debate from the Obama Administration, the Dem Congress, and their backers.
Ag - I think it's been demonstrated that tax cuts will be used by people to relieve degree of debt burden - which is huge. Tax cuts will saved, just as the previouis personal tax-cut stimulus was. Tax cuts doen't build bridges and other necessary infrastructure that this stimulus gives in return. So given the nature and magnitude of this crisis, absent anything but tax cuts, it is not being disingenuous to suggest the conservative plan is to do nothing. The very premise noted in the OP is not whether to have a stimulus or not, but that it might not be big enough to help. .
Are you talking about the tax rebate check of last year? That was not a tax cut but rather the government farie sticking a bit of cash under your pillow and hoping you spend it on a flat panel. Say what you will about Friedman's permanent income hypothesis, but it adequately paints that situation as small, one time, and generally nothing appropriate to stave off what we seeing in the economy right now. People were smart enough to stick that in the bank and ride out the storm. The larger debate, and one that is being squelched, is over the efficacy of stimulus. Well known Conservative economist Martin Feldstein is advancing the type of argument that you say does not exist. Wash Post Op-Ed
Oh well, it is through the house again and still no Republican backing (all votes against). If the Senate passes this, it is either Pres. Obama's ealry Waterloo or a brilliant start to his presidency. There is not much in between. I hope, for all our sakes, that history does not repeat itself and we are forced to re-write the textbooks.
Ag - You are entitled to reference people who espouse your conservative economic point of view, but the fact remains that Americans as a whole have lost confidence in conservative strategies and approaches. Given the level of support for the stimulus in light of near unanimous disapproval by republicans in Congress, the "we won, deal with it" stance is understandable and acceptable today by a majority of Americans. Republican 'conservative' policies over the last 8 years created a steep economic polarization in our economy. The partisan bitterness we see today is in large part related to that. Its's been suggested that a return to true bipartisanship will only occur when the deep economic polarization is reversed - something conservatism of the last 8 years did way more to promote than anything else. If this stimulus has enough effect for things to be stable and trending up by the fall of 2010, conservatism as we've come to know it may be politically dead. .
Giving individuals tax cuts or rebates is not going to stimulate the economy. If everyone ran out and spent $600 today that really won't stimulate the economy. It might make for a good sales day but is a company going to expand based on Wal Mart having a good day? Cutting taxes on corporations and freeing up capital for them will get them to add jobs, add locations, or build new plants. The government giving their employees a few dollars will just mean they spend more time at the snack machine.
Economists do not agree on this issue, and they never agree on anything. I have read that most economists favor a large stimulus bill. You can always find warring camps among economists.
Honestly... the bill should be larger. That is probably the most consistant message regarding the stimulus package from economists. there is always descension and differing points of view, it's not an exact science. it's also important to note that the GOP has not been the party of fiscal conservatives for quite a while now except of course for lip service. The GOP is the party of social conservatives, many of whom mascarade as fiscal conservatives when Dems are in power.
Economists actually don't endorse much, hence the Harry Truman joke about wanting a one-handed Economist. History does show, however, that stimulus plans fall on their face in almost all cases. Read this 1992 Op-Ed for historical analyis rather than forward looking conjecture. 1992 WSJ Op Ed
Well, it has passed (the House ). I hope to God that it works because our country is far more important than any political party. Understand though, that we conservatives DID want a stimulus bill, but just a better one. And I don't mean "tax cuts for the rich", etc....... Rather, we would have preferred cutting the capital gains tax rate and the corporate tax rate in order to stimulate business to take risks in the market, hire workers, and have long-term incentives for private sector projects. The President still could have kept his promise not to lower taxes on those making over $250K. Let's hope this works. I think it is a bad bill, but I will pray for President Obama and our country.
Objectively, the last two stimulus bills passed in this country (assuming that this one goes through) have been perfect mirror images of each other. In one, Henry Paulson hands out checks the same morons who dug the hole. In the other, completely unrelated liberal pet causes get fat checks. Economists naturally opposed both with little effect. I feel that I can't be alone in noting that this stimulus package is a different flavor of the same ********.
Bill Maher said on Larry King last night that all economists are in favor of this bill, the republicans only listen to rush limbaugh and want obama to fail. These are pretty much the talking points of the dems and what they are telling peopl,e regardless whether it is correct.
I love that he is one of the public faces of the Democratic party along with another emotionally unbalanced whack-job, Michael Moore. The GOP needs more of these ignorant, grating, propoganda spewing, infantile jerks to counter our own crazies.
Help me out. A lot of the opposition has been asking for a cut of corporate tax rates. My very limited understanding is that the big corporate tax is on income after all expenses or profit. In a recession, many companies aren't turning profits; and if they are in the worst hit industries they have losses. So wouldn't that only help firms once the recession passes and they start profiting anyway? How would that turn the corner? I could see a payroll tax reduction or something like that having a minimal impact. On the capital gains reduction...Who the hell out there has any gains! Kidding, I understand it would be to get the money off the sidelines. They could eliminate CG altogether and I still think people will stay on the sidelines until there is a reason to have some confidence in the market. It's called a flight to quality for a reason.
On a recent therad the other day, bozo explained pretty convincingly why corporate tax cuts will be of little to no help to the US turn the corner in this crisis. .
There are a ton of companies out there turning a profit. There are also a ton who have decided to move their operations out of the US becuase our corporate tax rates are some of the most confiscatory in the civilized world. Lowering it would bring in a lot of new business, and investors who have decided to seek more tax friendly markets.
