obamas to celebrate ' non-religious' Christmas?

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Horn6721, Dec 7, 2009.

  1. THEU

    THEU 2,500+ Posts

    Perham,
    I get kinda pissed off when Americans define the Constitution. I mean why can't the rest of the world, who want to celebrate a great document of govnerance define it anyway we want to as well?

    Christians do get to define Christmas. Now, I DO agree with you, and stated above that because it has become so non Christian, that many do NOT define it as Christian and they 'celebrate' Christmas, but not the birth of Jesus. It really isn't Christmas then that they celebrate, but rather some cultural trappings, and really something else... presents, giving, good cheer etc.
    I am attempting to at least semi agree with you that there are now different definitions of Christmas.
     
  2. notreally

    notreally 1,000+ Posts

    i know that i am going to celebrate "christmas" with my family this year and i can guarantee you jesus will never be mentioned nor will we even say grace.

    so, i guess we could start calling it a "holiday" party..... but the holiday is christmas so that doesn't make any sense to me.

    christmas, although created to celebrate christ's birth (which isn't even completely true), it has nothing to do with christmas in my family.
     
  3. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts


     
  4. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts


     
  5. TubaJon

    TubaJon < 25 Posts

    "Christmas" (meaning a day of celebration on Dec. 25th) is actually older than Christianity:

    Wikipedia link

    The Yule, the winter solstice, and other traditions all mingle into this single day's modern celebration.

    Decorating a tree is not particularly religious unless the tree is decorated with religious symbols. In fact, the first christians who decorated trees were soundly chastised by their churches for being "pagan."

    So, in fact, it is Christianity's own fault that Christmas has become less religious in its significance. The goal of fixing Christmas during these pagan holidays was to co-opt their celebration. It worked, to a point. But now the religious symbolism is so entwined with the pagan origins that they are inseperable in the American psyche. One cannot celebrate these (pre-christian) traditions without seeming religious, and one cannot celebrate Christmas religiously without embracing the pagan.
     
  6. JohnnyM

    JohnnyM 2,500+ Posts


     
  7. Oilfield

    Oilfield Guest

    A lot of Christians around the world celebrate our Lord's birth on January 7.
     
  8. Sugarpunk

    Sugarpunk 500+ Posts

    TubaJohn's post is a good one. An examination of the history behind Christmas, Easter and most of the major holidays being credited with Christian origins will reveal that in almost all cases the newer, religious manifestations were indeed coincided with existing pagan celebrations and eventually coopted them. Easter is a celebration of the spring, Halloween is a celebration of the harvest and so forth. This is something that was necessary in order to smooth the adoption and transition of Christianity as the civilized world assimilated barbarian cultures.

    In that vein, is Christmas truly a Christian holiday when considering the totality of the history surrounding it? It just so happens that the terminology for the winter holiday celebration has crystallized around the word "Christmas" in the Western industrialized world. Thus, that is how it is referred to colloquially. There are other words that have Christian origins and etymology but that no longer carry their original meaning. The word "litany" comes to mind. As such, this whole argument is really not much more than semantical at the end of the day.

    I don't much care either way as long as I get the days off, but apparently quite a bit of you are really hung up on it on both sides. FWIW, the wife serves it up a good deal kinkier around the holidays - which is a method of celebrating that I can definitely "get behind".
     
  9. Coelacanth

    Coelacanth Guest

    Obama certainly has the right to celebrate a non-religious Christmas. But for me, the question is why would any Christian (and he certainly claims to be a Christian) want to celebrate a non-religious Christmas?

    To me, it raises more questions about the nature of his 20 year attachment to the Trinity United Church of Christ. What was the real character of his religious experience? Why was he there? What was it that drew him to that?
     
  10. Oilfield

    Oilfield Guest

    Political aspiration.
     
  11. FondrenRoad

    FondrenRoad 1,000+ Posts

    Christmas is a consumer holiday more than a Christian one these days. Ask most American kids what happens on Christmas, and they will say it is the day that Santa Claus brings them presents.
     
  12. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    As a Christian, I can say that I don't celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday either - although probably not for the same reasons as were behind this issue (whether true or not, I really don't care that much.)

    Christmas was a pagan holiday co-opted by the Catholic church to give the converted pagans something fun to do in the winter time. It has no more relationship to Christ's birth than any other random day I might pick off the calendar.
     
  13. alden

    alden 1,000+ Posts

    No big deal. It's the way of things. Christians effectively stole most of their holidays from other traditions. Look at Easter. We've got the Christian traditions mixed with the Pagan traditions (fertility, rabbits, eggs, etc.). Eventually these holidays will evolve to "belong" to some other religion or custom.
     
  14. BigWill

    BigWill 2,500+ Posts

    I recognize the significance of May 16.

    Vince's birthday.
     
  15. Coelacanth

    Coelacanth Guest


     
  16. YoLaDu

    YoLaDu Guest


     
  17. general35

    general35 5,000+ Posts

    I'd like to see obama do the feats of strength with rham but that is just me. i hate christmas, its too commercialized and im forced to be nice to people i dont like and buy presents for people i dont like. a lot of us always got to a movie christmas night to get away from the family for a few hours. however, i do like traditions and its sad, if true, that the obama's were planning on ending a long standing white house tradition. obama ran for the presidency as a christian and a regular attendant at chuirch. if he is not wantng to celebrate christian, i'm not really surprised. his presidential campaign was a production and clearly, not a true reflection of his real beliefs.
     
  18. Rio Frio

    Rio Frio 250+ Posts

    Maybe those who choose not to recognize Christmas for what it is should create their own new "observance of merrymaking," or whatever exactly it is they are celebrating. That's certainly their right.

    But Merry Christ
    mas to those who believe, and God bless Texas.
     
  19. RomaVicta

    RomaVicta 5,000+ Posts

    Funny. Horn6721 throws (redistributes) the raw meat of a statement not made by the Obamas in which he/she ends with, "this must be wrong." Then why throw it out there? Even your low bar of initial credibility was too high for the story.

    Second, Tubajon, Prodigal and others point to the second funny aspect of hand-wringing over non-religious celebration of Christmas. Christianity co-opted the celebratory traditions of numerous pagan solstice celebrations to gain popularity.

    There is no evidence that Christ was born on Dec.25.

    As many Christians have said on this thread: Let people celebrate the season for whatever reason and in whatever way they like. Isn't there something about "judging" in the Bible?
     
  20. JohnnyM

    JohnnyM 2,500+ Posts

    Rio Frio - does it really bother you if I say Merry Christmas to my family with no religious meaning intended?
     
  21. Rio Frio

    Rio Frio 250+ Posts

    Not at all, johnny. I'm just genuinely curious what it means to you when you say "Merry Christmas." You certainly don't have to share that info with me ... I'm just answering your question truthfully.

    I'm all for folks doing what they want/when they want to do it--free from others telling them how to do it. But I've got to admit it's a head-scratcher to me why a non-Christian would choose to celebrate Christmas.

    Very interesting topic. Something about which I've long wondered.
     
  22. YoLaDu

    YoLaDu Guest


     
  23. Rio Frio

    Rio Frio 250+ Posts

    YoLaDu, thanks for your response. So it's the commercialized/gift-giving that's appealing to many? I can see that. Unfortunately many Christians--myself included--have fallen victim to the same hoopla and somewhat lost sight of the season's origin (for Christians, obviously; not for secularists). I'd just feel weird celebrating something in which I don't believe. To each his/her own, I guess.

    Not that you remotely care, but my family has decided to get back to the basics this year and embrace Christmas the way we believe we should (but haven't as of late).
     
  24. general35

    general35 5,000+ Posts

    I hope the kids get to celebrate the 8 days of hanukkah, otherwise, they are getting screwed.
     
  25. JohnnyM

    JohnnyM 2,500+ Posts


     
  26. YoLaDu

    YoLaDu Guest


     
  27. Rio Frio

    Rio Frio 250+ Posts

    Thanks. Very well said. And the same to you and yours.
     
  28. ScoPro

    ScoPro 1,000+ Posts

    I quit going to church 40 years ago but still celebrate Christmas every year.

    Never felt the need to reject the love & fellowship associated with it....nor to ridicule those who participate fully in the religious aspects of it.
     
  29. THEU

    THEU 2,500+ Posts

    Roma,
    The Bible does indeed say something about judging. It says not to judge wether someone is in a relationship with God or not and if they are going to heaven or not. I don't think anyone here is judging anyone else like that.

    What I have seen is a decent discussion here on how we are going to define Christmas as a holiday. As a Christian, I believe Christmas is not nearly Christian enough. It is sadly true that if you asked most people what Christmas is about, it would be Santa and presents I would guess.
    In my family, my folks are pretty traditional, mainline, WASPs of upper middle class suburbanites. Out of their 3 kids, only 2 of us have anything do to with Santa at Christmas, and the third doesn't do much do emphasise him. We also this year are moving towards donating to causes in the honour of siblings instead of getting each other things we don't need.
    I really think American Christmas should be renamed Festivus...
     
  30. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts


     

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