America is lost...

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Sheldon Cooper, Nov 7, 2020.

  1. nashhorn

    nashhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Come on SH, you either believe something is right or wrong or you don’t. It’s these beliefs that you espouse in campaigning that should define you. However I have cone to believe that a politician believes in nothing, except give me money to run and if it’s enough I’ll reward you when I win.
  2. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    Balancing their own conclusions may be in matters of ambiguity. In theory, we make our wishes known and someone steps forward and say's, "That's what I think too!" So if they possess leadership qualities then we send them to Washington. But let's not get too literal here. The world is incredibly complicated and this representative will not have the ability to consult with us on a daily basis. But if their philosophical world view is well developed then it can be relied upon to a great degree.

    As for abortion, I wouldn't think I'd like a representative who changed their views once in office after representing to me that his/her view was the same as mine. I'd like to know why. I'd probably not vote for them in the next election.

    Everyone knows how Catholics feel about abortion. In my view, if you are going to be pro-3rd term abortions solely because of the Constitution, then I feel it's hypocritical if you are a Catholic. You should just keep your mouth shut (talking about Nancy Pelosi) about being Catholic because you're not. I don't believe we can separate the two. It comes down to who you are.

    But the trick is whether being pro-life is about God or science as I mentioned. You want to believe it's all about God so you appear to wish to exclude those who are religious because it smacks of merging church and state. Or you give those who are religious a pass on their hypocrisy if they vote pro-choice.

    I think Pelosi is a world-class hypocrite. I know why she forcefully say's she's a Catholic; it's because of her love affair with illegal aliens from south of the border. It's obvious. She is pandering which skews this whole discussion. I don't believe she has a sincere bone in her body.

    I'd like to ask all science loving Liberals why science is suspended in the womb.
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Do you have an example of a Representative changing their views on abortion once in office? I can't readily recall any D or R that ran on a pro-choice/pro-life platform then changed when they got into office. Not saying those don't exist and yes I know politicians have evolved their views over time but I'm asking whether you have someone that campaigned in one direction then reversed course after the election on the topic of abortion? If this isn't wide spread then the point is moot, IMHO.

    Everyone also knows how the Catholic church feels about birth control so is it also hypocritical to support (and use?) birth control if you're Catholic? That's a pretty rigid view. If you don't mind me asking, what religion do you follow? Do you support every single view of that church and follow it to a 'T'? What about other organizations? Do you have to support every single perspective of the formal organization to avoid being hypocritical? Is now the time to point out that most people are born into the religion? They don't choose the religion based on whether it aligns to their worldview but rather it was hoisted upon them by their parents and family. They may like the community of the church, get some other satisfaction from it that they maintain.

    My wife was born a catholic though she's non-practicing and until the last 5 years thought it laughable that anyone should "choose" a religion. I was baptized and went through catechism as a Catholic then when parents divorced I became a confirmed Lutheran. Along my life journey I've attended Jehovah's Witness and Mormon service. If I chose the Mormon faith to say it best represents me that doesn't codify that everything about the faith I must follow. No Caffeine? Seriously? (BTW- I'm not a Mormon but there is nothing wrong with that faith).

    I don't speak for "liberals" but I'm wondering who is suspending science?
  4. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

  5. Run Pincher

    Run Pincher 1,000+ Posts

    It'll be a lot more 3-4 yr old girls in those units taken to brothels to be raped 20-30x day too.
    • Winner Winner x 1
  6. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Raped by other illegals. Illegality begats illegality.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    But they vote Dem
  8. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    Is anyone FOR third term abortions?

    if the embryo is a child under the law then why can’t you deduct said child on your taxes until they’re born? Seems like that would be the determining factor.

    shockingly, i agree with Husker. If you’re going to guide your views on abortion and based solely on Catholicism then you have to take the kooky view on birth control as well. Unfettered access to birth control is a great way to limit abortions.
  9. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I've heard that conclusion before about birth control being the purest test of Catholicism. I don't necessarily agree. But full disclosure; I'm not Catholic. So maybe I'm not the one to ask. One could argue it is the combination of the egg and the sperm is where the holiness begins. I suppose you could say Catholic men shouldn't masturbate either.

    But we're talking about real life in the womb. So these types of extreme examples are disingenuous to me.

    As for 3rd term abortion, you tell me. I'm asking if it's legal and if so, why? I doubt either you or Husker would be in favor of it.

    And while we're at it I'm not impressed with the idea that if a portion of my paycheck is not available to help raise that kid then somehow I should STFU about abortions. Sorry. That's BS.
  10. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    I’m Methodist.

    I have appreciated the definition that the fetus becomes a child at the point that it is viable outside of the womb. That does not mean that I advocate abortion up to that point.

    It just seems disingenuous to me to be so pro life that you would vote for the ***** grabbing casino bankrupting bully but you would have sex when not trying to create a child.
    • poop poop x 1
  11. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I understand the problems with Trump and his moral failings. The Hispanics I know in South Texas that were Trump supporter's would never vote for Liberals. Trump's "manliness" was an attraction. But the real support was due to religious conservatism and they are not cowed by attacks on Trump. They see AOC et al and feel they are extremely dangerous to our overall country even if they are saints in their personal interactions with others.

    You can call them hypocrites (or coconuts as their Liberal tribal brethren would call them) but in the end, it was policy and power in place for their own values that won out.

    And they want the wall too. They don't want illegals coming over. They don't want trespassing on their ranches or property damage or physical threats. It's real. And nobody on the Left gives a crap. It's obvious. So the choice there is very clear.

    I appreciate that you are a moral person. Maybe I'm not, but Trump's failings as far as ***** grabbing bravado is the same as many of the old rock stars. Yet they are hero's to so many. That's male toxicity for sure and many many men over the years have stepped over the line, if not literally grabbing, but at least treating it verbally as their property to do with as they wish. It excuses nothing. It's not the standard of behavior. It's vile.

    But in the end, what the Liberals want is absolutely unacceptable. So that's why they vote the other way.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    I don’t need to ask him because he is outright for it. Hard to call him a practicing catholic with his support of abortion.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    • WTF? WTF? x 2
  14. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    Apparently, 36% of practicing Catholics identify as pro-choice. 65% of non-practicing Catholics. You've got a lot of Caholicism shaming to do.
  15. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful post. Seriously.

    I think you identify anyone left of the the midline as "liberal" and, in your perception, all the values, policies, etc. of these "liberals" are part and parcel with AOC and the squad. Wait and see is all I can say.
  16. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    We were taught that we are all sinners. But there are mistakes of sin and there is serial sinning. Those who advocate year after year for abortion on demand are serial. One mistake over a lifetime is a mistake.

    But if you believe that the fetus was a viable baby and you either had the abortion or paid for it (men should not be off the hook here) then you have to answer to God if you believe as Catholics do.

    Or maybe you just confess and move on down the road.

    All of this is really about sanctimony from some Leftists in general. Their arrogant moralistic speeches about abortion on demand being available (and possibly paid for by taxpayers if they could get them to do it) is the real story. It's off-putting and insulting to a thinking person.
  17. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    Again, you paint everyone left of the midline with the same brush. I can be guilty of the opposite of that as well.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    Thanks for the nice comment.

    I break the Left down into two parts: Liberals and Democrats.

    It's like someone once said about porn, "I can't define it but I know it when I see it."

    It's the same with Liberals. But if I were asked to describe them then in general I'd say they are idealistic, uncompromising zealots who pursue their aims in a supremely arrogant, vile manner, bent on destroying anyone who disagrees with them. And they are demanding that the central government use it's unaccountable power to circumvent the Constitution to achieve their aims which to them are holy, non-negotiable and worthy of by any means necessary tactics including threats and lies.

    Democrats don't act that way but still can hold the same basic virtues and desires as Liberals.
  19. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    Your liberals seem like the zombies in World War Z, not the zombies in The Walking Dead. :)
  20. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I'll have to watch that movie.

    Maybe AOC is a caricature; overly hype-ridden without true power. But I believe she has captured the imagination of far too many with a personal axe to grind and they like her big mouth. Just like many people liked Trump's big mouth.

    But in my Trump wasn't being revolutionary (enforcing immigration laws is not revolutionary; mistakes aren't revolutionary); AOC is and the things she say's about disliking deficit hawks for instance, proves to me that she only wants to take what she now believes is hers to distribute and nothing is to be considered. Objections about printing money or the deficit are attacked as racist.

    Is that like those zombies?
  21. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    Not everyone... some... and they're very vocal. Look at what happened to Diane Feinstein after the Barrett hearings. She was viciously attacked by the Liberals I am talking about. This only a year after she went after Kavanaugh.
    • Like Like x 1
  22. nashhorn

    nashhorn 5,000+ Posts

    I’m simple, anyone disagrees with me is Liberal. Those that agree, conservative. See? Simple.
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  23. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    That's true for many on this board.
    • Like Like x 1
  24. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Honestly, I'm not a fan of this sort of thing. I think you can defensibly take the position that your faith dictates something different from your politics. As a Christian, I think lust, engaging in homosexual relations, and adultery are sinful, but would I criminalize them? No. There are practical and comity-related reasons not to strictly enforce the dictates of your religion through law.

    The bottom line is that I think the entanglement of abortion policy with religion is a detriment. It distracts and diverts from the underlying case and. My religion opposes abortion, but who the hell cares? I have no right to force my religion on others (and as a Christian I know I can't force my religion even if I was somehow given that right by government). Furthermore, a Muslim's religion might say my head should get severed for not converting. Obviously I wouldn't want his religion to gain the force of law.

    My opposition to abortion is rooted in the fact that I don't see a reason (and have never heard a remotely persuasive reason) to distinguish between the born and unborn in terms of its right to live. Moving it a few inches outside the mother's body doesn't make the big difference. However, even my opposition to abortion yields to the rule of law and my belief in the right of others to disagree within the federalist system created by the founders. I have the right to push for abortion to be banned in Texas, and the fact that the Supreme Court has taken that right away from me is a flagrant abuse of judicial power and has no moral legitimacy. However, I have no right to make that push in any other state and sure as hell have no right to make that push nationally. We need to keep the issue simple, not complicated it with religion.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Barry, not every Democrat is obnoxiously nutty on abortion, and it isn't fair to paint them as such. Of course, the big problem is your party's Supreme Court appointees, and that's the big equalizer on the issue and why so many of you get lumped together. Furthermore, since you all believe every social issue should be decided by judges rather than through the democratic process, Supreme Court nominations are all that matter when judging a Democrat on social issues. It's also why Supreme Court nominations are the ugliest battles in American politics.

    For example, Joe Biden isn't as radical as AOC, but at least on social issues and definitely on abortion, his appointments to the Supreme Court will be basically the same as anyone AOC would appoint if she were President. (They wouldn't be the same on criminal justice, economic, and regulatory cases.) So he might seem moderate, but whether he or AOC is the President, the push from where it counts (the Court) will be for abortion on demand and chicks with dicks in the girls locker room, and that's the bottom line. There have been zero exceptions to that for Democratic appointees since Byron White, and he left the Court in 1993 and was replaced by RBG - a radical on social issues appointed by a supposed "moderate" Democrat.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  26. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. nashhorn

    nashhorn 5,000+ Posts

    This all really pisses me off but not for the normal reason. As I have said before daughter has enormous student loans for law school BUT they are the parent guarantee loans so she will watch others get this freebee but not her. Ahhh the justice of it all.
  28. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    This may surprise some on this board but I'm not for writing off these student loans. I have no problem with work programs in which students can do things like work in inner-city schools to get some loan amount written off but simply to wipe them off the books penalizes those that have worked hard to pay off their own loans. Heck, I've worked my *** off to pay of my loans, my wife's loans (masters) and will have 3 undergrads in school next year which I'm paying cash for their education.

    Meanwhile, I have a brother-in-law that ran up his debt (Undergrad, 1yr of law school then MBA) all the while STILL never holding a job at age 42. Not happy about taking my extreme amounts of money and rewarding his lack of work ethic.

    Not saying he's typical of all students with debt but it pisses me off.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  29. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    We paid ours off just recently. I just got one out of college, another in college, and a high school junior.

    I look at loan forgiveness like Gods grace. I personally can’t get on board with understanding how God can forgive some sins. But, His grace is between He and I and it is not my place to question His issuance of grace to other sinners.
  30. nashhorn

    nashhorn 5,000+ Posts

    You're something else Bubba - all I can say.

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