Barnes

Barnes is a good recruiter but a mediocre bench coach who runs a very weak offense. He gets good players but either fails to keep or develop them. We had more talent than Kansas this year, but Barnes was out-coached by most of his colleagues in the Big 12. This year is not an aberration---it is a pattern.

Barnes was ranked the most overrated coach in college basketball by bleacher report in both 2013 and this year:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...errated-coaches-in-college-basketball/page/12
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...errated-coaches-in-college-basketball/page/11

In 2012, *other college coaches* voted him the 2nd-most overrated coach in the country (behind Roy Williams):
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...ho-is-the-most-overrated-coach-in-the-country

The problem with the argument that we should keep him is that there are so many coaches from lower-tiered schools (even in our own conference) who consistently have better teams. In the last 7 years, we haven’t made it to the Sweet 16 and we ended the regular season in the Top 25 only once.

Here are the end-of-season AP Top 25 rankings for UT since 2008:
2014-2015: unranked
2013-2014: unranked
2012-2013: unranked
2011-2012: unranked
2010-2011: 10th
2009-2010: unranked
2008-2009: unranked

In that span, six Big 12 teams have ended the season in the Top 25 more times than Texas:
Kansas
Oklahoma
Baylor
Iowa State
Kansas State
West Virginia

In other words, we are in the bottom half of the Big 12. It’s time to give someone else a shot. \nn/

 

In your opinion....

Anyway, yes I would take Bill Self if we could get Bill Self.

name them

 

Well his last decent team had a couple of players who could light it up, but Barnes didn't like the way they played defense. J Brown and J Hamilton. That team was fun to watch.

 

I think that's sort of what he was doing with the last part of the data in his post:

"In that span, six Big 12 teams have ended the season in the Top 25 more times than Texas:
Kansas
Oklahoma
Baylor
Iowa State
Kansas State
West Virginia"

 

I thought so, but I am not sure Kansas, OU, or WVU are lesser basketball programs than us.

 

Happened to have the radio on today and they mentioned he has the worst record against the spread in the NCAA tourney of any active coach with ... forgot the exact stipulations but something like at least 1 win ATS and 5 games total. Obviously spreads only tell you so much since it's really just a prediction of how the average viewer bets, but it also says something about team performance relative to the perception of talent. So if a coach is unusually high or low against the spread, either probably he's usually good or bad at getting the most out of his talent, or the perception of the talent for that team is way off of the reality.

 

I wasn't aware of his "overrated" awards, but it does not surprise me in the least. It is very rare that we ever beat someone ranked or seeded above us, but in the game of basketball that is a fairly frequent occurrence because of the nature of statistics (good shooting night/bad shooting night). We find a way to lose much more often than a way to win in competitive games.

Htown doesn't believe you can win in Texas because it is "not a basketball state" and we neither produce good players or if we do Texas schools can't recruit them. I think these assertion are hackneyed and out of date. I think he still lives in a world of the '50's Texas when attitudes towards race was problematic and in many places in the South and Southwest black athletes just weren't utilized at the university level. The landscape of college sports has completely changed (and is still changing) due to money(both for colleges and players when they go pro), media exposure, early player identification and high level training (grade school and high school).

Htown also likes to compare tourney appearances and the end all and be all of accomplishments despite the fact that like college football bowls, that has suffered from grade inflation. Now .500 teams go to college football bowls making it ridiculous to compare coaches appearances in bowls with the '40s when there were a handful of bowls. Now 68 teams go to the tourney and I don't consider just making the tourney a great accomplishment. If you are a flagship university in a major state, getting to the tourney now should be done more often than not. That is being demonstrated these days by the Big 12 where 1/2 appear. I mean 2 teams from Kansas, Iowa, Oklahoma each went and 5 teams from Texas.

Htown also seems to have blinders when it comes to how Barnes coaches on the floor and how good in player development he is and just how well(bad) he gets his teams to execute offense. We've recruited a high rate of NBA capable players but don't get the results that would normally engender.

 

Someone is angry about someone disagreeing with them when they throw BS like that out there. You just lost all credibility with me with that post hornarama... especially since I was not even alive in the 1950s or 60 or 70s and am probably more in tune with how much young people in this state do not care about basketball than you (of course I do not know how old you are so who knows). You must seriously be sore to dedicate an entire post to me. You need to learn not to take things personally on an internet message board dude. How do you think I take everyone else on, on this board? I do so with calm, hopefully always or at least mostly logical argument based on facts, not silly personal attacks. I actually respected your points and the positions of you and other anti barnes posters. The whole fun of this board is discussing and sometimes arguing about Texas sports. When you get so upset and your feeling so hurt that you want to imply that another poster is a racist or has a racist attitude from the 50s when you do not know the first thing about another poster, you need to take a serious step back. If anything, you must not feel confident in your own position to go there since race has had nothing to do with anything in any of these barnes conversations over the past month.

Hornarama, if you do not like pro Barnes opinions which are different from your own and you like personal attacks there is this site called shaggybevo that is all about personal attacks, hating rick barnes and they even vote out people with different opinions to prevent a diversity of ideas or good back and forth discussions that feature multiple sides laying out both the pros and cons of Texas coaches. You should check it out.

Also money does not equal victories in college athletics. Sorry, but if did we would win more and schools like Kansas State or the Mississippi schools or Arkansas would never win anything. The University of Washington is consistently in the top 10 of revenue and while they are good at sports, they certainly are not a top 10 athletic program in football, basketball or baseball.
*(washington dropped out of the top 10 of revenue this year, but had been there in the past. Iowa is 11 in revenue. What have they won recently?)

 

austin.blog.statesman.com

 

Hornarama, you must have missed this post on another thread.

List of state of Texas final fours:
1943 Texas
1947 Texas
1948 Baylor
1950 Baylor
1956 SMU
1966 UTEP
1967 Houston
1968 Houston
1982 Houston
1983 Houston
1984 Houston
2003 Texas

If i had a 1950s attitude, I would have really high expectations for this state and basketball program, higher than yours, as Texas went to two final fours in the 1940s and this state had 5 of our 12 finals fours in a 13 year span from 1943-1956. I would expect to see Texas teams in the final four on a consistent basis with a 50s attitude. The problem is in my lifetime, the only time I have witnessed a Texas school in the final four was Rick Barnes in 2003. I am used to seeing Texas teams not make the final four, not make the NCAA tournament, go 0-5 in the tournament and listening to Texas fans talk about what a great basketball state this is.

 

Did not feel like disapproving this point as it is time consuming, but I feel like you want me to with your last post.

This point is half correct and half incorrect.

It is absolutely true we rarely beat teams with higher seeds than us. In fact, I think Barnes has only beaten one team ever with a higher seed than us in the NCAA tournament (Mississippi State, I forget which year). This is a good and fair criticism of Barnes.

The problem is, that correct and good point was mixed in with an inaccurate statement that Barnes rarely beats higher ranked teams. Yes, this year we rarely did. However, this was one of Barnes two worst seasons. I could go back over his whole career, but I only need to go back to last season.

2013-14
Unranked Texas 86 at #14 North Carolina 83 W
Unranked Texas 78 #5 Michigan State 92 L
Unranked Texas 74 at #11 Oklahoma State 87 L
Unranked Texas 86 #8 Iowa State 76 W
Unranked Texas 67 #22 Kansas State 64 W
Unranked Texas 75 at #23 Baylor 60 W
#25 Texas 81 #6 Kansas 69 W
#19 Texas 76 at #17 Iowa State 85 L
#19 Texas 54 at #8 Kansas 85 L
Unranked Texas 65 #7 Michigan 87 L

So is 5-6 really "rarely"?

I also remember off the top of my head winning at #1 UCLA in 2008 and beating higher ranked Michigan State and Kansas teams multiple times.

The rarely beating higher seeded teams is true for the whole career, but the rarely beating higher ranked teams criticism is more recent and this season related.

 

Htown77 always seems to make rational debates, whether I agree with him or not. Hornarama's post seems like a personal attack that does not have any basis from what I have read on this thread from Htown77 posts.

 

It's changed so much that teams like Duke, Michigan State, UCLA, NC State, Louisville, North Carolina and Kentucky all made the Sweet 16.... again. It's changed so much that Ohio State won another national championship in football. It's changed so much that Alabama has won three football titles recently and is a perennial title contender. It's changed so much that Texas baseball has not been to the CWS since..... last year.

 

The main issue seems to be that we can't recover from a down period. We've had team that had their "mojo" all season long, we've had teams that started poorly but then improved later on, but when we've had a team start well and then lose it partway through the year, they never ever get it back.

Ever since the days of Sonny Alvarado, we just have UNC's number for some reason.

Historically it isn't though, just fwiw. Texas men are #5 all time in men or women's basketball in terms of tournament victories as a double digit seed.

TJ Ford's freshman year we were #6, and beat #11 and #3 (not sure who) before losing to #2 Oregon at the buzzer.

 

Htown,
That post was in no way intended as a personal attack. It was meant as a reply to your position. And as I've been mystified by some of what I consider your wrong points I was just seeking some source for the mis-perception. Just mentioning race seems to start a hot button these days...but my point was that sports in the past were done mainly with whites at universities. Those colleges that were late to the party accepting black athletes often started to perform so poorly it added one more reason to undergo a (proper) attitude adjustment. I think times and sports have changed and there is now much more opportunity in Texas to field basketball teams at every level that are superior. You don't agree. Anyway, I agree to disagree and I in no way don't respect you as a human being or all around good guy just because you have a different viewpoint.

In my experience of the debate with you, you've pounded a few points which I referenced. You don't seem to actually analyze basketball that is produced from the program. I'm sorry I can't agree that states like Arizona are such hotbeds of basketball that Texas can't compete with them. In hindsight I do see where my post could be considered condescending and arrogant because of my strong belief that you are just wrong in some of your points. I believe in some cases if you took the other side of the argument you might see that some of your points have a lot of spin to them and their basis is somewhat flawed. Maybe not.

I have spent way too much time on this myself, and I'll probably go back into hibernation. I do apologize for whatever negative connotations I may have imparted that made you feel like it was a personal attack. One more defense of myself...I posted many thousands(10K+) of posts on the other board and don't recall any instance where my posts were interpreted as a personal attack.

 

I must say that I appreciated the back and forth from both hornarama and Htown. But I do think, hornarama, that your post in question did seem edgy and somewhat pointed at Htown in an unfortunate manner. I appreciate your above post where you clarified your intent and the post's objective.

I would hate to see either one of you alter your posting patterns. I've learned a great deal from both of you and, as someone who is undecided about which direction our BB program needs to go (admittedly I am leaning toward a Barnes upgrade) need the information that both of you provide.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the Horn by the name of Cary on all points. I think that post showed class, H'rama.

 

I have been following these posts on this Barnes debate all season. First off, I read hornorama's post above and it did not strike me at all as a personal attack on Htown. Heavy-handed criticism? Yes. Personal attacks? No.

Htown, while you have made some valid points, I come down on the camp that feels we need a coaching change. To me, the body of evdience is is beyond any reasonable doubt. As hornorama says, we can "agree to disagree".

I do like to see both sides of this debate & respect all opinions. I beleve this site has many intelligent posters and that's what drives all of us here. But, sometimes the opinions are so passionate that some counter-debate posts are deemed personal attacks. I just don't see that here in this case.

Just my 2 cents....keep up the healthy dialogue!

 

Ok sure, but it was bizarre to assume out of the air that his reasoning was based on forgetting that we're not in the 1950s any more. Especially being aware of how race is a hot-button issue, one should be aware of how being accused of racism is also a hot-button way to tear someone down, and be careful when one's post could look like a veiled attempt at saying someone else is stuck in their beliefs from the pre-civil-rights era.

 

stat.. I have to respond since I find it bizarre..how my post could in any way be seen as accusing someone as racism. I was accusing Htown of possibly missing the effects of the changes (against racism) that have occurred historically that may be a factor in invalidating historical comparisons. And not just missing that factor but the many changes in the last decades that have changed the landscape of college sports and high school sports...money, etc. I've also attacked his historical comparisons because of changes in tourney selection (e.g. the multiplying of entrants). My deal about the 50's was just a pointed reference to the many changes that have occurred that might change the inertial realities of "we are not a basketball state" and "we don't produce good Texas basketball players that will go to Texas universities." At power university level its almost semi pro now in the major sports. One of Htowns central arguments "we are not a basketball state" has I believe had much more merit in the past than it does now. My argument is that their are other reasons we are not winning (e.g. coaching) and I think I've showed many reasons to support this view. And I think I've also shown reasons to rebut "we are not a basketball state" in a meaningful enough way to not abort having a winner (e.g. high ranked prep recruits).

But your post reflects the bizarre environment in which we now live where just the mention of race is taken as an accusation of racism. Htown is a prolific poster and I certainly don't have time to continue to respond to his rehashing of his points as I've already done long posts that really reflect my arguments. I was attempting to be a bit more pithy, but obviously it backfired.

I thought of another thing, what possible benefit to my argument does calling someone a racist do? And what possible rational or basis would I have to call Htown a racist...he has absolutely nothing in his posting to support that idea. If anything I would hope the tenor of my posts are consistently rational (albeit chalked with my opinions). For those that have read my many posts...I would hope the body of work would make it much tougher to jump to such a conclusion and not so easy. After all, it is now my character which is being impugned based on very little.

Oh what the heck I will point out one more change in the last 17 years in our state that makes it more of a basketball state....pro basketball. San Antonio Spurs have been the most consistent winner in the NBA over that span, and Dallas has won a NBA title as well, and Houston has been competitive. As a very long term Spurs fan I know that San Antionio is Spurs crazy...so you certainly can't call that a non-basketball city. I suspect there have been effects in Dallas and Houston from their pro teams to raise the interest and profile of basketball in those places as well.

 

As a resident of the DFW area for most of my sixty..., uh, ahem, make that my mature life span, so to speak, I have definitely noticed a sea change of positivity and interest in basketball in this metromess of 6 million plus souls. Me, my sons, and most folks I know follow basketball much more seriously than 20+ years ago. My kids played select BB and my goodness, it was everywhere. That was simply non existent when caryhorn was a whippersnapper. I do believe that Texas is a hotbed of excellent BB talent and it will only get moreso as time goes by.

 

Dad? Is that you? What have we told you about haunting internet sites?

 

I don't think anybody would suggest Texas is not a hotbed of high school basketball talent. I would suggest it's not a hotbed of college basketball interest. If you have spent time with people from Indiana, Kentucky, North Carolina, etc. there is an amazing interest in college basketball. Grandmothers and teen-agers can name all the starters and describe the playing styles of players from thier favorite college team from this year or 5 years ago.

 

Texas is obviously not a basketball state. Nevertheless, the state produces a number of good recruits, and UT (and other schools in the state) get a number of high-caliber players. We are 9th in the country in terms of number of NBA players:
http://rpiratings.com/NBA.php

Thus, it is undeniable that UT has had some incredible talent. The question is: what have we done with that talent? Nothing. We consistently under-perform our talent.

 

Htown.... based on your post I presume you were born in the 80s. So that makes you a bit of an expert on younger Texans appreciation for basketball? My son and daughter were born in the 80s. I coached both when they played basketball. My son was even on a couple of select teams during junior high. (One of my best players even played for the New England Patriots). They both still follow basketball as much as football.

Although I was at UT in the 70s, I still play every week.... although now pickup games with 20 and 30 year olds. They love basketball. My LA Fitness has a Big Dance poster covering an entire wall.

How do you know that young folks don't follow basketball? Do you play? Do you frequent venues that offer access to ball?
The last Mavericks game I attended with my son a few weeks ago was full of high school and college age kids.

Not saying that a top 10 recruit from Dallas will turn down a offer from Duke, but Texas produces a ton of top level players. We need to find our Billy Donovan.

 

Well I was not going to respond again to this thread, but I guess I have to do so. The reason I was not going to respond was hornarama clarified he did not intend a personal attack so I thought it best to let the thing die there and hornarama and I could debate another time on another thread. There really is not that much left to say other than people repeating themselves but if you, the reader, want more repetition, read further. I will clarify to Hornarama that I had the same reaction as Stat. I found the 50s response bizarre since I have been focussed on recent statewide tournament failure and one final four in the last 30 years. See the following excerpts of this post on a thread I started (maybe no on looked at as it got 0 responses. It's the State of Texas goes 0-5 thread. I updated it yesterday with final results).

As the post points out, 5 of the state's 12 final fours were in the 50s and 40s and we have had a 30 year drought of only one final four. Our state went 3-10 in all 4 postseason tournaments combined this year! Maybe Hornarama did not see that thread and I misconstrued his post. It just did not seem to be logical to what I was saying. I retract my "lost all credibility" statement and will take hornarama at his word that he was not making racist implications or making a personal attack. Moving on to the repetition.

I too am a longtime spurs fan, but it has been my experience that many spurs fans (obviously no one here) do not know much about basketball (though they know quite a bit about the spurs) and are mostly interested because that is the only pro team San Antonio has. Winning NBA titles helps with interest. The interest for college and high school basketball in san antonio is nowhere near what it is for high school and college football. My experience with mavs fans (f*** the mavs and cuban) has been they are mostly only interested because they are winning (that is true of dallas anything, see the lack of rangers fans until recently). Not ALL fans, but many are just crazy about their teams because both franchises have been successful lately.... though I will qualify that San Antonio is pretty hardcore in supporting any team in any sport it gets (and it is BS that we could not support a pro football team). I have attended at least one UTSA football game a year when Texas had a bye or a road game played at a different time and I would say turnout has been solid for UTSA football. UTSA basketball made the tournament one time, got some attention and lost to stanford but people are generally not interested in UTSA basketball like they are UTSA football.

Pro sports are not a good indicator for high school and college talent/interest (a good point Crockett made earlier). Massachusetts has great pro football and baseball that people are passionate about, but that does not mean they have great college or high school football/baseball (I know their college baseball is bad, but I admit I do not know about Massachusetts high school baseball) or even great interest in those areas. I know wherever I have been in Texas, people (young or old) do not live and breath basketball like they do football. It's not even close (well El Paso has some pretty solid college basketball support). In the north and east, people do live and breath basketball. We are a state of 26 million and do not turn out the same talent or interest as smaller states in the north and east do. It's because everyone wants to play football first. In my high school (which made the top 8 in the 5A playoffs in basketball, football, and baseball) basketball was a distant third. A few players that played D1 basketball and were mediocre at football STILL played football. They had no business playing football, the coaches told them to stick to basketball, but they played football anyway. Mike basically makes this point with

What sport did that player stick with?

Mike, yes there are passionate young basketball people and some stick with it. I got stuck listening to two mavs fans the other night at a party. There are also passionate soccer people and many stick with it. Every argument you've made could be made about soccer. A lot of people play soccer as kids now and stick with it awhile. Many people coach soccer and are passionate. Is this state a soccer hotbed? Do we produce fantastic soccer talent? (should clarify men's soccer, I know our state is good at women's soccer and women's basketball for that matter!)

The proof is in the results. The results are we just went 3-10 as a state in all four postseason tournaments combined. In the past 30 years (the modern integrated era), only one school made it to the final four one time with the man many want to fire. Does this state probably have better basketball development now than ever? Yes! However, a state with 26 million people should be able to fill out multiple teams of 5-10 players that are final four competitive if it is serious about basketball. Instead we have one at best if any and Rick Barnes has often had to do it with out of state players. IF a Texas coach could get the 5-10 best players in this state, I agree that he could win a national title. The problem is those players know how lame texas basketball environments are and how people are not passionate about it. I have pointed out I would fully support the athletic department doing something about getting or at least trying to to get that passionate environment, regardless of whether we keep Barnes, because it would be a big boost to whoever the Texas basketball coach is.

Larry Brown (SMU), Billy Kennedy (A&M) and Scott Drew (Baylor) are not good example of Texas basketball recruiting.
1. They have already caught SMU basketball in funny business.

2. As stated in another thread, Billy Kennedy is terrible and has been unable to recruit or win in 4 years. Now, suddenly he is getting top recruits while losing to Auburn in the SEC tournament and getting run off of his home floor by the likes of Louisiana Tech last night? (If you want to see the opposite of a Rick Barnes defense, watch A&M in the last 10 minutes of the A&M-La Tech game. I am pretty sure I watched a La Tech guard go uncontested through all 5 a&m players straight to the basket, miss an uncontested layup, get his own offensive rebound uncontested, then put it back in uncontested. All i could say was "wow.")

3. Do you really believe Scott Drew and Baylor are clean right now (in any of their men's or women's sports)?

Now one argument y'all have ignored is that florida has had a lot of immigration from the northeast (though Donovan still won his titles with many out of state players). Maybe the immigration to Texas from the north and california will help our state's basketball? Maybe my views are about to be out of date as the poor 1985-2015 era of Texas basketball is coming to an end. Who knows?

Anyway, in conclusion, I cannot agree about this state being a basketball hotbed until there is some sort of consistency from any school. I do hope that whenever Barnes goes, the next coach is someone like Billy Donovan that will take Texas basketball to a consistent level of success that has not been seen in this state since U of H in the 60s and 80s.

P.S. I do not apologize for any shots I took at Dallas, the mavs, or their fans. The spurs lost while I was typing this up and I am not happy about it.

 

No question you are right ^^. But with the exploding population here, over 20 million, those states are dwarfed population wise. And we have enough talent here to produce top 20 teams regularly. We need a better coach to get that done, imho. Rick seems to have plateaued, and maybe regressed somewhat, for whatever reason, in his ability to get it done. Upgrade coach = upgrade team = higher win percentage in March. Just my opinion.

 

Because people who do accuse others of racism (and there are plenty out there) often make a pretty similar statement. FWIW I do think it was just an unfortunate coincidence now, but when I first saw the post I thought you were trying to imply "Wow you haven't changed your attitude from back in the days when blacks were 2nd class citizens", not because of any posting history of anything like that (hell, half of the time I read posts here I'm not even looking at the posters, just the content), but just because I've seen enough other people use that as a tactic.

None logically, but someone who can get their opponent to look racist tends to be considered by everyone else to have won the argument even if it's completely a red herring.

I hope so, because it's not helping anything else!

It's funny to me how most Spurs fans generally cheer for Dallas and Houston against the rest of the league (although this year with SA needing the other West teams seeded 3-7 to lose it's different) and consider them a worthy opponent and one of several rivals, while most of Dallas sees SA as the despised #1 rival.

This is a very good point. Heck I know several people from Indiana who could give you a play by play of a bunch of high school playoff games they watched 20 or 30 years ago.

 

Texas produces outstanding basketball talent. Just take a look at many of the players Barnes actively recruited the ended up at Kentucky, etc.