Boyer' open letter to Kaepernick

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by NJlonghorn, Oct 15, 2017.

  1. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

  2. theiioftx

    theiioftx 2,500+ Posts

    I respect all of their rights to kneel. I hope they also recognize my rights to not buy NFL products or watch them on TV. Kap learned a lesson the hard way.
     
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  3. UTChE96

    UTChE96 1,000+ Posts

    I cannot speak for the other side but I do not trust that most blacks and folks on the left want an honest discussion on the topic of police treatment of blacks. I have met many great black people who have shared their negative interactions with the police, and I believe them and feel for them. But what I rarely hear from them is a thoughtful discussion about why this prejudice exists among so many police officers including black police officers. The inclination is always just to dismiss it as evil, racist police officers which is absurd. I do believe that there is a prejudice among police and many in society against black people but it is because blacks continue to commit crimes at a very disproportionate rate relative to their population. Until we solve that root cause, the prejudice will continue to exist. Unfortunately if I try to have that honest discussion then I will be immediately labeled a racist.
     
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  4. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    Both sides need to talk sane and rational, like you just did. Unfortunately, neither sides does so often enough. Too many people talk like this when discussing the need for the two sides to talk turkey, but then resort to vitriol when it's time to actually talk turkey.
     
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  5. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I read an article in the NY Times penned by Eric Reid; he said kneeling was similar to a flag at half-mast. Unfortunately that's not how Kap explained last Fall unless I missed it in real time. The half-mast side of the story was inspired somewhat in my view but it was more papering over what had already transpired in the way it evolved.
     
  6. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    I don't think Kaepernick learned a lesson, or at least not the one you think he needs to learn. The lesson he "learned" is that there are lots of people out there who think a flag is more important than black peoples' rights. And he's willing to sacrifice his personal economic success to protest against that. I admire him for that.

    I'm not saying I admire Kaepernick for everything he does, nor that I agree with him. I think he's off base on lots of levels. But I do try hard to understand his perspective. I think the issues he raises are valid to some degree and merit serious discussion. Unfortunately, the extremism on both sides makes that discussion impossible.
     
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  7. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    It's a lesson only if he is shocked that he destroyed his career. If he had his eyes wide-open then I admire his conviction.

    At it's core, this is an employee who is hurting the company brand (bottom-line) with a protest that is unrelated to whistle-blowing. I'm not a lawyer but it is my personal opinion that a business owner is not bound to sit idly while his employees hurt the brand every week for an issue unrelated to the business itself. It's that simple to me.

    As to whether or not black people have a beef then I have to defer to my black friends, all highly educated and professional who have told me privately how they have been profiled. I liken it to when a woman you know tells you what life is like from her point of view in terms of sexual advances by men. We tend to not focus on that. I remember a very good friend of mine who was a classic sexual predator in high school (long ago). He groped the girls in school at will. To this day he is a very popular and a dynamic person in the eyes of the high school alums. But if you asked the now grown women (one in particular) they would paint a very different picture of him. But his male friends (me included) have written that off and continue to be his friend.

    In my view, we have to assume that what we are told by our black and female friends is something we need to HEAR and take to heart. We can't learn anything during an internet political flame-war but we can learn something when we are being told these things in a calm, rational, closed-door conversation at work during some down-time between a black man and a white man who trust and support each other at work.
     
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    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  8. horninchicago

    horninchicago 2,500+ Posts

    Most alcoholics don't admit they are alcoholics. If there is systemic racism against black people by most police officers, how will the kneeling and dialog supposedly created by these jokers kneeling cause said officers to admit they are racist and change how they police black people? Honest question here. Do people who support these protests honestly think that will happen?

    What it seems to actually be causing is a rising number of police officers being afraid to take necessary action in many instances and becoming injured or worse themselves because of the fear of being labeled racist if they arrest a black person who deserves it.
     
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  9. theiioftx

    theiioftx 2,500+ Posts

    I had no idea that blacks had less rights than other races. Which specific law does Kap want changed?

    Do you also admire the Whataburger employee in Dennison for refusing to serve a police officer? She did it because of how her black boyfriend was treated a few weeks earlier during an arrest.
     
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  10. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 5,000+ Posts

    It's because every issue is polarized and without nuance. You either side with Käpernick, or you're a Trump-loving, white supremacist fascist. You either side with Trump, or you're an unpatriotic, cop-hater. It's anti-intellectual and dangerous, but that's where we are. I think social media plays a big role.
     
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  11. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    If you think the only rights that matter are those that are enshrined in the black letter of the law, then yes, blacks have had equal rights for the last 50+ years. These are called rights "de jure," or "of the law." But there is a broad concensus on both sides of the aisle (including every SCOTUS Justice since Plessy v Ferguson was unanimously overruled in the 1950s) that the concept of rights also encompasses how the black letter of the law is applied in real life. These are called rights "de facto," or "in fact." If you don't accept this premise, then you are further out of the mainstream than I realized.

    I don't speak for any particular black person, much less black people as a whole. If you really want to hear the perspective of black people on the issue, all you need is an open mind because there are plenty of them out there clamoring for your attention. As with any group, some of them are more rational than others.

    This is the first I'm hearing of that situation, so I can't speak to it specifically. But I will say in general that protests should be directed against the system and/or the perpetrators of individual acts. Taking revenge against an innocent person who happens to be a police officer would be inappropriate.
     
  12. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    If you want to discuss specifics, please do so. Let's go through the cognitive process rather than just make a baseless accusation that someone is "out of the mainstream" in your opinion.
     
  13. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    My "out of the mainstream" comment was to the idea that "rights" only include "laws". I'm not sure if you really meant that, but if you do, that's way out of the mainstream and there is no need for "specifics".

    If you want to discuss ways in which blacks' rights are violated other than by explicit laws, I think we'd all be better off if we let blacks have a meaningful voice. Their point in taking a knee, and all of their other ways they are trying to garner attention, is to get people to listen to them after decades of being ignored. You asking me to give examples is besides the point. I'm asking you to listen to them, not to me.

    I'll throw out a recent example from when I took the time to listen. I spoke with a black guy the other day who jogs regularly in my upper-middle-class neighborhood. He says he gets stopped by police and asked for ID three or four times a decade. When's the last time that happened to you?
     
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    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
  14. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    I heard on the radio that Käpernick is now suing the NFL. He claims that he's been blacklisted. He says teams indicated (some how, some way) that they we interested in him and then, nothing. He claims NFL management is keeping teams from offering him a contract.

    Personally, I don't think Goodell has the will or the desire to do that, but we'll see. I'll bet Goodell wishes he'd have sat on Kapernick when this started last season, before it got out of control. Too late now.
     
  15. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    Either you do want to talk specifics, or you don't. Anecdotes supporting any point of view, regardless of how strange or truthful they may be, exist. You must have some facts backing up your suggestion to go speak randomly to black people about their experiences. For instance, are blacks or whites shot more often during police encounters?
     
  16. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 5,000+ Posts

    Have I started something with the umlaut? If so, that's kinda cool.
     
  17. theiioftx

    theiioftx 2,500+ Posts

    Let's talk specifics and how the NFL players are doing anything that specifically relates to change.

    Here is the link to Whataburger http://www.chron.com/news/local/tex...onds-after-police-in-North-Texas-12280051.php

    We all have rights and those rights are sometimes infringed by individuals. If those rights are infringed, we have a legal system (which I am sure you defend) that serves as a judge and jury when our rights are infringed.

    I believe the NFL is largely protesting similarly to the formation of Black Lives Matter. BLM grew out of the Michael Brown incident in St. Louis. The Obama administration lawyers investigated this and found that the police officer acted as needed given Michael Brown's behavior.

    Again, what laws or processes need to be changed?
     
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  18. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    You are asking me to defend a point different from the one I'm trying to make. My point is that blacks want their viewpoint to be heard and debated, and I think they are entitled to that. If taking a knee during the anthem at NFL games is how they want to get attention, I'm okay with that. Asking me to defend their viewpoint is not productive.
     
  19. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    They are not “entitled” to be heard. They have a right to speak.
     
  20. theiioftx

    theiioftx 2,500+ Posts

    Fair enough. To your original point, I agree. Unfortunately, when the argument starts off from an extreme perspective, you will likely get the opposite extreme response.

    He is leading a movement that damaged his career and the value of the NFL. If that was his intent, he has been successful. However, I would argue he has hurt the cause of unfair treatment of people by police officers.
     
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  21. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Did you mean to say decade? I guess one time is probably too many, but I'm not sure you're going to make a case that people are being oppressed if they have one incident every 3-4 years. Again, not excusing it, but that's a good example of how - if you're not misspeaking - there has to be a combination of one side understanding that ignoring the occasional slights is probably something you have to do, and the other side recognizing how hard it is for someone to do that and trying to figure out ways to change that culture.
    The problem is, there aren't any laws that are going to fix that issue. It has to do with people and their attitudes and their hearts, and the more we try to legislate that, the worse things get.
     
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  22. nashhorn

    nashhorn 1,000+ Posts

    When I saw 'decade' I had the same thought but then appreciated the once is one too many aspect of the whole thing. Although I admit to being stopped once on my bike when in a neighborhood that had gates. I had ridden around them, and yeah I realize not the same, just saying that that frequency is bizarre.
     
  23. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    Yes, he said per decade. And no, he wasn't giving me a boo-hoo story about how he is oppressed. He just wanted people to think how about how they might feel about the police after more than a few experiences like his.

    He did make the point that he's been lucky not to stumble on the wrong situation. He thinks that if a white guy shot at him, there's a pretty good chance the police who arrived on the scene would treat him as the perpetrator and the white guy as the victim. He could be running away from the perp in terror, but if he happened to be running in the direction of the arriving officer, he fears that he'd be more likely to get shot than a white guy in the same circumstances.

    I wish I could've told him that his fear is silly, but I couldn't. I'm not sure his fear is accurate, but it is certainly understandable.

    I agree. In fact, I made basically the same point to him, and he agreed, too. But his overarching point was that "blame the bad blacks" only takes you so far. There are a few bad cops, and we don't hold that against the majority who are good. So why should he, as a black person, be treated differently just because others of his race behave badly? I understand why it happens, and so did he, but that doesn't make it okay.

    Bingo. And the way we fix attitudes and hearts is by having open, meaningful discussions about truths, causes, and cures. Too many people on both sides of the conversation are deaf to discussions like that.

    I actually disagree about once being too much. Once, or even twice in a lifetime, can just be a coincidence. Multiple times per decade is a pattern.
     
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  24. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 500+ Posts

    And this is a local problem in my opinion not a national one. I know about 75% of the cops in our force and probably about the same proportion of black families in our city. (we don't have a lot of black families). But none, on either side, seem to have these animosities toward each other. This phenomenon is largely a dense urban area problem, where there are too few police chasing too many bad guys and local residents tendency is to circle the wagons and point fingers at the cops instead of helping the cops.
     
  25. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 500+ Posts

    This is simple revisionist CYA. They thought they could go out and protest and because of their clout as marquee players, they thought they would get a similar result as the players at Missouri Univ.
     
  26. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 5,000+ Posts

    I've cited this story previously but now might be a good time to bring it back. Ron Sims is a black man, former Seattle Mayor and King County Executive. He's been pulled over 8 times for "driving while black". Never was he cited.

    These stories are insightful if only to offer credibility to the "unequal justice" discussion. Yes, these black men are being pulled over due to the propensity of black males to commit crimes. Still, that doesn't mean it is right or fair.

    Has Kaepernick become victorious in his protest? His (and others) goal was to bring attention to the topic. This sort of rational discussion surely is what he'd hoped for.
     
  27. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 5,000+ Posts

    I'd argue that areas where the minority threatens the majority you see these racial tensions. Where I grew up in smalltown Nebraska we had 1 African-American family. They were treated well since they were somewhat an oddity. This family posed no threat. Now, the hispanic population that made up 1/3rd of the town was definitely a threat and racial tensions constantly ran high, even into the police force. Analyze rural areas with high African-American populations (i.e. Mississippi) and I suspect you'll find the same tension.
     
  28. Garmel

    Garmel 1,000+ Posts

    This has occurred to me several times as well. However, it was always late at night.
     
  29. mb227

    mb227 2,500+ Posts

    They are getting attention but it is NOT encouraging ANY manner of productive conversation. As such, I would HIGHLY have recommended that they find something that does not have the complete opposite effect and is, instead, pissing off mainstream America.

    Their 'leader' admitted in the beginning that it was indeed a protest against the flag.

    The WhataBurger incident is simply one more data point in how their delivery has widened any chasm they claimed existed before all the crap started...
     
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  30. mb227

    mb227 2,500+ Posts

    If one has their lights on and one is out, it is NOT unreasonable for a traffic stop to occur. Those LOOKING to be oppressed will find something to claim victimization over. Those NOT looking for such things under every single interaction will take the warning for what it is and go get the light fixed.
     

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