Caucus for Torah Values

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by NJlonghorn, Jan 23, 2022.

  1. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    I think I just puked in my mouth.

     
    • WTF? WTF? x 1
  2. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    Would you prefer to advance Koran values?
     
  3. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    His name is Bacon? Maybe it’s turkey bacon.
     
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  4. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Maybe

    :bow:
     
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  5. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 2,500+ Posts

    They are committed to fighting bigotry, protecting community values, and the right to worship freely. Those guys are cutting edge and unique. Let me make a toast to the obvious....
     
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  6. utahorn

    utahorn 250+ Posts

    Will Ilhan Ohmar, Rashida Tlaib and other members of the squad participate?
     
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  7. mb227

    mb227 5,000+ Posts

    I know it is spelled like Bacon, but it is actually pronounced matzah...
     
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  8. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Cuellar joined the caucus? I read it was Rep. Bacon alone in the caucus last week.

    How weird is it that not 1 of the Jewish members in Congress participate in this caucus? It's almost like Bacon (and now Cuellar) are politicizing the Torah to get favor with their Jewish voters back home.
     
  9. huisache

    huisache 2,500+ Posts

    More likely to get some fundamentalist Christians peeled off. Henry has a Prog opponent in the primary
     
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  10. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    NJ
    Why did that make you puke?
     
  11. Horn2RunAgain

    Horn2RunAgain 1,000+ Posts

    Yes, Laredo being 95% Hispanic is known to be a hotbed of Jewish worship & political activity. Great point...
     
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  12. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    @huisache answered in a bit more respectful and thoughtful way. Not unexpected.

     
  13. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    FIFY
     
  14. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Maybe

    Leviticus has some good family values
     
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  15. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    upload_2022-1-24_19-44-39.gif
     
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  16. Duck Dodgers

    Duck Dodgers 1,000+ Posts

    Plus some good tips on shellfish when a city's raw sewage drains into the bay.

    Every religion has instructions on how to get to heaven, and how to avoid sitting in the outhouse all day long.
     
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  17. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    Judaism doesn’t have a “hell” right?
     
  18. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    Somehow religion hasn't reached Oklahoma.
     
  19. guy4321

    guy4321 250+ Posts

    An individual Jew may not believe in hell, but Judaism itself does. See Sheol and Gehinom.
     
  20. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    This caucus does not support "Torah values". Instead, it exploits the phrase "Torah values" in a transparent attempt to support Christian biblical values. The fact that no Jewish member has joined or otherwise expressed support should give pause to consider what the caucus is really about, and who it really supports.

    I have no problem with caucuses that are exclusively Christian, or that present viewpoints that I oppose -- so long as they are upfront about who they are and what they support. For example, the far-right Israel Victory Caucus takes the position that the only solution to the Middle East conflict is military victory over the Palestinians. I disagree, as do a substantial majority of American Jews and a large minority of Israeli Jews. But the caucus presents a viable viewpoint and doesn't pretend to be something it isn't.

    Also, this new caucus fills space that already has numerous caucuses, including those focusing on Israel (the Israel Victory Caucus mentioned above as well as the center-right Israel Allies Caucus), antisemitism (the Bipartisan Task Force for Combatting Anti-Semitism), and Jewish-"other" relations (the Black-Jewish Relations Caucus and the Latino-Jewish Caucus). Other than the Israel Victory Caucus, all of these caucuses include both Jewish and non-Jewish members.

    Yeah, I think @huisache has this right. This is not about garnering Jewish support. It is about supporting far-right Christian values.
     
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  21. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    There is nothing in any sect of Judaism that comes close to what a Chistian would consider "hell".

    The modern term Gehinom comes from the Biblical "Gei Hinnom", which literally translates as the Valley of the Hinnom, a non-Jewish clan that lived in Palestine during the first (I think) Temple period. The valley is described in the Old Testament as being a horrible place plagued by sin and fire, and there are some references to evil Jews people being banished there. Nothing in the Old Testament ties Gei Hinnom to the afterlife.

    (As an interesting aside, the valley is believed to be the same area as the Gehenna section of modern Jerusalem.)

    There are some ancient Jewish texts that refer to Gei Hinnom as something that could loosely be construed as what we call "purgatory" today. However, these texts consist of spiritual guidance by revered Jewish scholars. They aren't intended to be taken literally. In fact, the writings of different scholars often openly disagree with each other -- and this is no exception. Many of the ancient texts deny the idea of a purgatory. Those that claim there is a purgatory (or "Gei Hinnom") assert that the maximum "stay" is 1 year. To the best of my knowledge, none of those texts support Gei Hinnom as anything resembling the Christian concept of an eternal "hell".

    There is wide disagreement over what Sheol means. The only context from the Old Testament is that it is where the dead go. Some take this to literally mean a gravesite. Others consider it to encompass both Eden and Gehinom. I think there are other theories as well. Regardless, I'm not aware of any Jewish writing that treats Sheol as being anything vaguely resembling hell.

    The modern-day confusion stems from the fact that the King James version of the Old Testament distorts all of the above by translating Gehinom, Sheol, and a couple of other terms as "hell". This ham-handed Christianization of the Old Testament is the same sort of distortion that makes me very skeptical of a Christian caucus for "Torah" values.

    For what it's worth, I stuck with the phrase "ham-handed" because I think it is cute in the context of a discussion about Judaism. However, my suspicion is that the King James translation was a carefully constructed attempt to Christianize the Old Testament. I doubt there was anything accidental about it.
     
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  22. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    I think those re-writing the OT wanted a nice fear driven motivator to assure that people gave money to the church to keep the coffers full.
     
  23. guy4321

    guy4321 250+ Posts

    @njlonghorn.27583 Good summary. Sheol represents a spiritual destination cutoff from God and living people. That's encompassed in the most forms of Christian hell. Certainly you can find an individual Jew who says it's just a synonym for grave, but seems silly considering Jacob said "No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning." when he thought his son Joseph was dead.

    Gehinnom does have that 12 month layover for most souls. Some will say the soul is removed from existence after the 12 month period. Others say the truly evil souls are left there permanently, which maps even more closely to hell.

    The original question was does Judaism have the hell concept not does the Old Testament. Perhaps you are stuck solely on the Protestant view of hell, generally fire and brimstone - oh by the way, that phrase is used multiple times in the Torah. Other Christian denominations do not take such a harsh view for hell. Catholics have Purgatory to work their way towards heaven, Jehovah's Witnesses have hell as the grave for all, and Seventh-day say hell is eternal sleep not suffering.

    I guess you mean temple since the OT was written roughly between 1220 BC and 200 BC. Then a pretty famous Jew showed up to say stop trying to profit on folks going to worship. Churches didn't show up until around 50 AD.
     
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  24. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Catholics have hell, which is defined as the absence of God (if I recall correctly). Traditionally, hell is described to be, well, hellish. Purgatory is a theological supposition and not official church teaching. People often confuse catholic theology for church teaching.
     
  25. horninchicago

    horninchicago 10,000+ Posts

    If only we had a @LonghornCatholic around here to school us heathens.
     
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  26. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    I don't think @OUBubba is talking about when the OT was written, but rather when it was rewritten in the form of the King James version that distorted the translation in numerous ways.
     
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  27. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Catholic like Sarkisian

    Hey, what’s going on in here? I didn’t authorize this! :smile1:
     
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  28. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Catholic like Sarkisian

    Good stuff on here, though. Let me catch up and I'll humbly chime in.
     
  29. horninchicago

    horninchicago 10,000+ Posts

    No one is more humble than you.
     
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  30. LonghornCatholic

    LonghornCatholic Catholic like Sarkisian

    Pretty much, McH. Hell is the “[the] state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed.” CCC paragraph 1033.

    By the way for those who may not know....the catechism of the Catholic Church is not equivilent or above sacred scripture. I know some make that false claim. Not saying anyone here, though. It's not like the Book of Mormon, for example.

    The CCC is our "playbook". Basically the only religion in the world who says to the world, "Hey, here's why we believe what we believe. Check it out." And of course with all biblical passages for our beliefs included. Not saying you have to agree, but it's there for the world to see.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022

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