i wouldn't call myself very religious. i have yet to see this documentary. look, i have my own problems with faith, and sometimes, very specifically, christianity. i think i've illustrated them often on this board. but from what is being described, this documentary is highlighting some extreme fringe elements of christianity, yet many people (ryan included, it seems) seem to think that these fringe wackies represent christianity. well, they don't. in my everyday life, i'm surrounded by christians who are very normal, well adjusted people. most of them grew up christian. they are nice people, most of them. i don't see the scars of emotional or physical abuse because they go to church on sunday. to equate teaching religion to your child as ABUSE is mind boggling. and i say that as a parent who plans on playing a very secular role in my child's faith journey.
Hayden_Horn, excellent post! I think the point that you make is spot on because most of us tend to generalize people based on just a select few. That includes all facets of life including religion, politics, cultures, etc.. The problem is that a lot of times, the select few that we get exposed to are radicals or extremists. Documentaries like this are good to get a closer look at a small sample that was selectively chosen to sway people one way or another. It in no way comes close to reality nor does it represent anybody other than the people shown.
ryan- children are creatures of faith. that's what makes them such a trip. we teach them to believe in things like santa claus, the tooth fairy, the easter bunny. we also teach them abstract concepts like heat conduction, gravity, etc, for their safety. they don't need to understand the abstractions behind these things. imbuing your child with a sense of the world and a sense of the spiritual is cool. it's a fine thing to do, no matter what your spiritual ken. when your child gets older and starts questioning your **** - that's when things get interesting. i was raised in a pretty secular household, but i was told to say my prayers, i was given a bible and told to explore it if i wanted, and i got gifts from santa claus, money from the tooth fairy when my teeth fell out, and got a shitheap of chocolate from the easter bunny every spring. i've grown up and questioned a bunch of what i was taught and a lot of what i read in the bible i was given. i like to think i'm a critical thinker and that my social growth wasn't shunted because of these things. likewise, my best friend grew up in a very catholic household. sunday school, first communion, confirmation, the whole thing. likewise, as he grew older, he came into his own belief system, and he is, as well, a critical thinker - probably much more so than i. what does all this tell me? that neither of us were "abused" in any manner because we grew up in households where spiritual abstractions were present.
The fact that there are multiple relgions fundamentally begs the question which one is right. Your example of 2+2 is not a good analogy. There is no debate and no faith necessary because NOBODY says otherwise. It doesn't matter if I believe it or not. Using your "Love" example. If there were 5 different people claiming to know what Love is, then I would rationally presume that one of them would have to be the real meaning of love. The reason this is so important is because this is not just an emotion this is a debate as to the eternity of life. You are claiming to be certain of something that has very serious implications in life and after. You are just using my views on the subject as a buffer to not answer the question.
I have met many christians who are overall good people. I have met many atheists who are overall good people. I have also met Christians that will make your stomach turn. I have also met atheists that will make your stomach turn. Extremists in any believe, faith, or train of thought are a very, very bad thing...
One more point while I'm bringing scripture into this. You say that everybody accepts 2+2 to equal 4 yet I tell you that there are plenty of children that have not accepted this truth yet, therefore there are plenty of people in the world who do not agree that 2+2=4. They have to be taught and they have to be ready to accept that, while they have no prior knowledge of such a subject, whatever they are being taught is true. See Mark 10:15. Jesus says that nobody will be able to receive the kingdom of God unless they receive it "like a child." If you HAVE to have proof, then you have no faith, and will never learn the truth. This is shown in the parable of the sower found in Luke 8:4-15. A person who is not ready to receive the truth (unfertile soil) will never be able to receive it. Just as unfertile soil will never be able to allow a seed to grow. Soil must be fertile and ready to accept the seed before the seed can grow. So you too must be fertile and ready to accept the truth before you can explore the deeper meanings of it. You must allow yourself to be "Sure of what you hope for, and certain of what you do not see." This is faith.
netslave, Obviously you think that Christian children are learning the truth? Would you say the same for Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, or Buddhist children? Most would think that they knew the truth and the others do not. This is the problem with the indoctrination of children. It doesn't allow for an objective view of all the religions. A child is taught that this is the way and the other ways are false. This is why you rarely see anyone switch from one religion to another. Indoctrinating a child usually means that his beliefs will either be the same as his parents or he will not believe in anything at all. If one had reason to quit believing in the religion of his parents, that same reason would prevent him from converting to another religion. Personally, I have no problems with parents teaching their religion to their children. My problem is with those that seek to spread their religion outside their family. I am an atheist. I was raised by a very devout Presbyterian, and I believed until high school. I don't regret my upbringing, but I do think that children should be taught that they don't NEED to have these beliefs.
It's probably worth mentioning, not that I'm sure it has any real bearing on netslave's argument, that the 2+2=4 analogy is not very relevant because things like "numbers" and mathematics in generals are an attempt to express a priori concepts. I'm not sure that this applies to an existence of a deity, but I suppose that's a matter of viewpoint.
Belief and Reasoning are interchangeable. A belief is something you come to after listening to reasons. If my reasons are good enough I can get you to believe something. That is what it is to be a rational human being. You listen to people's reasons and decide if you hold that belief.
