'I Feel Duped on Climate Change'

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Namewithheld, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    That is because your subjective values differ from others' subjective values, and because your basis for man made global warming is built on unverified and often fraudulent science.

    You, like most Democrats, think in categorical terms, which is simple minded. You fail to examine, or even acknowledge in many cases, the benefits from using coal. As Deez pointed out, coal fired electric generating plants, which power 30%-40% of the U.S., are a lower cost choice of energy for the end user. This improves individuals standard of living. It is estimated that coal supports over 1 million jobs in the U.S. Coal supports not only coal miners, but employess in transportation, equipment manufacturing, construction and electric power plants.

    Maybe the vast majority of the population is okay with a slight rise in temperature (assuming that it is man made) given all of the other benefits of coal, tar sands, or other hydrocarbons. Maybe the subjective values of millions of people differ from your subjective values.

    Above all else, it seems that about half of the population is sick and tired of the constant haranguing from Democrats about their sole ability to determine what is problematic for "society", and the need for Democrats to substitute themselves into the place of the individual when it comes to making decisions.

    The Democrats had eight years to show how well their ideas worked. The most significant domestic results of that experiment involving the centralization of decision making authority seem to be another failed entitlement program (Obamacare), an increase in racial divisiveness but no change in income levels for minorities, anatomical males being able to access bathrooms and locker rooms formerly reserved for little girls and women, the slowest economic growth in history thanks to quantitative easing and over regulation, and a government boldly breaking laws when it comes to spying on its own citizens.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. mchammer

    mchammer 5,000+ Posts

    So, what is the right temperature, Mr. Smarttpants?
     
  3. OUBubba

    OUBubba 1,000+ Posts

    Hell, I don't know. But, to see someone actually argue that helping warm up the earth is a good thing is kind of funny. It's like UT is smack dab in the middle of oil country or something...

    My stance is that the science may not be settled. But, to ignore the science and the potential for harm that we're causing is foolish. Seems like a fairly reasonable stance as compared to the poles split between Al Gore and Scott Pruitt.
     
  4. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    No one is suggesting that we "ignore science". What is being suggested is that we ignore false prophets, and examine their motivation.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    And there's no reason to distrust the team that's making all the money off of the fossil fuels, because we know how quick they are to acknowledge their failures and clean up their own messes. We know they've never adopted illegal bribery practices to make a few more bucks, we know they've never denied responsibility. Heck we know that corporations always do the right thing because the MARKET makes them.

    Come on, you may be able to disagree with the exact volume of scientists that have backed the CC science (most claims are in the high 90's) but it is certainly a substantial majority. And while the academia may be predisposed to big government programs...you are essentially claiming that almost the entire scientific community has colluded to tout CC....so that they can maybe get a grant in the future????

    Let's see. let's follow the money, as so many are fond of saying. I can either believe a huge swath of academia, of whom precious few will ever receive ANY benefit for making the CC claim, or I can believe the fossil fuel industry and the handful of scientists they've sponsored for "unbiased science".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. OUBubba

    OUBubba 1,000+ Posts

    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  7. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    Fraud committed by the oil and tobacco industries does not legitimize fraud committed by climate change "scientists".
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    And fraud by a handful of CC scientists do not invalidate the voluminous data and scientists that support climate change nor does it validate the biased data from much of the fossil fuel industry.
     
  9. OUBubba

    OUBubba 1,000+ Posts

    True. And some things are immeasurable insofar as data points go. The Great Coral Reef in the process of going away as an example. It's not going to lead to Al Gore's glacier's in NYC but it has to have a significant impact.
     
  10. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    Now if we could somehow distinguish between the "real" and the "fraudulent", you may have an argument. Just repeatedly stating that man made climate change "is real", and "90% of scientists agree", and "this is settled science" is not an argument supported by facts. It is a position. Just like the position that the hydrocarbon industry takes.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    And a coral reef disappearing is no proof of your position. Why is it going away? Where is the empirical evidence showing that man made climate change is real and is causing the reef to disappear?

    One of the problems liberals have created for themselves is the failure of their historical ideas and policies that were also based on fraudulent data and ideas. For example: Sex education reduces pregnancies; innovative educational methods are more effective; crime rates reflect social root causes; the gender pay gap and minorities suffering are due to racism, sexism, or prejudice; black people learn better in integrated schools; diversity of skin color is always a good thing.

    Face this fact: Climate Scientists are no more or less biased than the oil and gas industry representatives. There may be disinterested observers somewhere, but those hawking the climate change mantra are far from disinterested. They benefit ideologically or monetarily. They want political power to back their ideas. Throughout history, elitists have been willing to sacrifice the freedom of others as long as they could achieve their religious or social goals.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Capture.PNG

    It is supported by the preponderance of facts and scientists by all the available data. While you quibble over whether 90% or 80% of scientists agree, you're ignoring the fact the vast majority agree. Feel free to call it a position, but it's one supported by much more evidence than those who dismiss climate change. The paucity of evidence to support the opposing view and the fact that the majority of it is simply pointing out holes in the support of CC is why the false equivalence line of attack from the "dismissers" lacks credibility.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  13. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    I don't hold the position that it is settled science but when I have to make decisions on events that I don't have perfect information or visibility on all the details, I go with the preponderance of my experts and the preponderance of the data. Particularly when one side of the equation could potentially lead to calamity. Better safe than sorry. And once again, I'm not advocating that we alter our energy structure wholesale. But we should keep a strong pursuit of renewables, we should keep from drilling in places we haven't already drilled, we should continue to push for higher economy standards. A wholesale shift in our energy policy could be economically painful, but none of the above does that. Our economy will sail along just fine even if we continue all of the above ecologically sound pursuits.

    And by the way, the American economy and capitalism have also proven themselves to be quite resilient. I believe someone remarked about how the earth was resilient and we shouldn't worry ourselves about it. I have a great deal of faith that all we are doing by adopting new energy policies is making a different energy market, which some smart person will step into and make a mint. Just the way our economy is designed to work. American doesn't loose in that equation....Only the fossil fuel faction. which coincidentally is the group saying "these are not the droids you're looking for". Hmmmm??
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    Interesting media coverage from today's Statesman:
    http://weather.blog.statesman.com/2017/05/09/how-good-is-the-u-s-drought-monitors-news-for-texas/

    "Less than 5 percent of the country is experiencing drought, according to the U.S. Drought Monitor. That is the lowest percentage since the drought monitor began issuing weekly updates, according to an interesting post from the Climate Central web site. (Which also warns this picture could be caused in part by a more extreme wet-dry cycle caused by global climate change.)"

    The parenthetical information in bold is the interesting statement. They cannot let any type of news pass by, whether (no pun intended) it is extreme, normal, welcome or unwelcome weather patterns...
     
  15. 4th_floor

    4th_floor 1,000+ Posts

    Your experts? Al Gore? Bill Nye? James Hanson? Michael Mann? Hanson proclaimed in 2006 that mankind only had 10 years to reverse global warming to avert calamity. So I guess we're already screwed. Michael Mann has data. But he decided to edit his data to "hide the decline" in temperature. For a real expert, consider reading some of Dr. Roy Spencer's books. Spencer is a recognized climate scientist at NASA and was widely heralded as an expert until he revealed himself as a skeptic. But he might be able to reduce your anxiety.
     
  16. 4th_floor

    4th_floor 1,000+ Posts

    I didn't address Al Gore or Bill Nye because neither have any credentials regarding climate science. You probably know more than either of these celebrity bozos.
     
  17. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    If any of that were true, you would have a strong position. However, you are just articulating the same rationale again without any supporting facts.
     
  18. OUBubba

    OUBubba 1,000+ Posts

    Logic such as this doesn't sell well here. Why is that?
     
  19. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    If by "logic" you mean his "opinion", he has every right to express that opinion. That doesn't mean we have to agree with every aspect of it. Some may Just have different values.
     
  20. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/globalwarming2.html

    Folks at the address above compiled an incomplete list of things that scientists and uninformed laymen with large public platforms on places like CNN and NPR have blamed on global warming. The list is below; on the site's page, each item in the list is linked to its supporting article should you wish to view them.

    Seems to me that climate change is often (not always) used as a convenient crutch for a lot of fraudsters (not real scientists) to use when they can't explain their data any better.

    Acne , Longer plane flights , agricultural land increase , Afghan poppies destroyed , Africa devastated , Africa in conflict , African aid threatened , African summer frost , aggressive weeds , More Toxic Poison Ivy , air pressure changes , airport malaria , Agulhas current , Alaska reshaped , moves , allergy season longer , alligators in the Thames , Alps melting , Amazon a desert , American dream end , amphibians breeding earlier (or not) , anaphylactic reactions to bee stings , ancient forests dramatically changed , animals head for the hills , animals shrink , Antarctic grass flourishes , Antarctic ice grows , Antarctic ice shrinks , Antarctic sea life at risk , anxiety treatment , algal blooms , archaeological sites threatened , Arab Spring , Arctic bogs melt , Arctic in bloom , Arctic ice free , Arctic ice melt faster , Arctic lakes disappear , Arctic tundra to burn , Arctic warming (not) , Atlantic less salty , Atlantic more salty , atmospheric circulation modified , attack of the killer jellyfish , avalanches reduced , avalanches increased , Baghdad snow , Bahrain under water , bananas grow , barbarisation , beer shortage , beetle infestation , bet for $10,000 , better beer , big melt faster , billion dollar research projects , billion homeless , billions face risk , billions of deaths , bird distributions change , bird loss accelerating , birds shrinking , bird strikes , bird visitors drop , birds confused , birds decline (Wales) , birds driven north , birds return early , bittern boom ends , blackbirds stop singing , blackbirds threatened , Black Hawk down , blood contaminated , blue mussels return , bluetongue , brain eating amoebae , brains shrink , bridge collapse (Minneapolis) , Britain one big city , Smaller loaves of Bread , Britain Siberian , brothels struggle , brown Ireland , bubonic plague , budget increases , Buddhist temple threatened , building collapse ,
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
  21. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    CONTINUED

    building season extension
    , bushfires , business risks , butterflies move north , camel deaths , cancer deaths in England , cannibalism , cannibalism again , caterpillar biomass shift , cave paintings threatened , childhood insomnia , Cholera , circumcision in decline , cirrus disappearance , civil unrest , cloud increase , coast beauty spots lost , cockroach migration , coffee threatened , cold climate creatures survive , cold spells (Australia) , cold wave (India) , computer models , conferences , conflict , conflict with Russia , consumers foot the bill , coral bleaching , coral fish suffer , coral reefs dying , coral reefs grow , coral reefs shrink , coral reefs twilight , Cabbage Shortage , cost of trillions , cougar attacks , crabgrass menace , cradle of civilisation threatened , creatures move uphill , crime increase , crocodile sex , crops devastated , crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems , curriculum change , cyclones (Australia) , danger to kid's health , Darfur , Dartford Warbler plague , death rate increase (US) , deaths to reach 6 million , Dengue hemorrhagic fever , depression , depressed PETS! , desert advance , desert retreat , destruction of the environment , disappearance of coastal cities , disasters , diseases move from animals to humans , diseases move north , dog disease , Dolomites collapse , dozen deadly diseases , Drop in birth rates , drought , ducks and geese decline , dust bowl in the corn belt , early marriages , early spring , earlier pollen season , Earth biodiversity crisis , Earth dying , Earth even hotter , Earth light dimming , Earth lopsided , Earth melting , Earth morbid fever , Earth on fast track , Earth past point of no return , Earth slowing down , Earth slowing down 2 , Earth spins faster , Earth spins faster 2 , Earth to explode , Earth's poles shift , earth upside down , earthquakes , Specifically the 2015 Nepal earthquake , earthquakes redux , earthquakes redux 2 , Egypt revolt , El Niño intensification , end of the world as we know it , erosion , emerging infections , encephalitis , English villages lost , equality threatened , Europe simultaneously baking and freezing , eutrophication , evolution accelerating , expansion of university climate groups ,
     
  22. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    extinctions

    human , civilisation , logic , Colony Collapse Disorder (Bees dying) , Inuit , smallest butterfly , cod , ladybirds , pikas , polar bears , make polar bears eat their cubs , possums , walrus , toads , plants , salmon , trout , wild flowers , woodlice , a million species , half of all animal and plant species , mountain species , not polar bears , barrier reef , leaches , salamanders , tropical insects)

    experts muzzled , extreme changes to California , fading fall foliage , fainting , famine , farmers benefit , farmers go under , farm output boost , fashion disaster , fever , figurehead sacked , fir cone bonanza , fish bigger , fish catches drop , fish downsize , fish catches rise , fish deaf , fish get lost , fish head north , fish stocks at risk , fish stocks decline , five million illnesses , flames stoked , flesh eating disease , flood patterns change , floods , floods of beaches and cities , flood of migrants , flood preparation for crisis , Florida economic decline , flowers in peril , fog (more) in San Francisco , fog (less) in San Francisco , food poisoning , food prices rise , food prices soar , food security threat (SA) , football team migration , footpath erosion , forest decline , forest expansion , frog with extra heads , frostbite , frost damage increased , frosts , fungi fruitful , fungi invasion , games change , Garden of Eden wilts , geese decline in Hampshire , genetic diversity decline , gene pools slashed , giant oysters invade , giant pythons invade , giant squid migrate , gingerbread houses collapse , glacial earthquakes , glacial retreat , glacial growth , glacier grows (California) , glacier wrapped , global cooling , global dimming , glowing clouds , golf course to drown , golf Masters wrecked , grandstanding , grasslands wetter , Great Barrier Reef 95% dead , Great Lakes drop , great tits cope , greening of the North , Grey whales lose weight , Gulf Stream failure , habitat loss , haggis threatened , Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome , harmful algae , harvest increase , harvest shrinkage , hay fever epidemic , health affected , health of children harmed , health risks , heart disease , heart attacks and strokes (Australia) , heat waves , hibernation affected , hibernation ends too soon , hibernation ends too late , high court debates , Hitler , HIV epidemic , homeless 50 million , hornets , horses shrink , human development faces unprecedented reversal , human fertility reduced , human health risk , human race oblivion , hurricanes , hurricane reduction , hurricanes fewer , hurricanes not , hydropower problems , hyperthermia deaths , ice age , ice sheet growth , ice sheet shrinkage , icebergs , illegal immigration , illness and death ,
     
  23. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    inclement weather , India drowning , infrastructure failure (Canada) , industry threatened , infectious diseases , nflation in China , insect explosion , insurance premium rises , Inuit displacement , Inuit poisoned , Inuit suing , invasion of cats , invasion of crabgrass , invasion of herons , invasion of jellyfish , invasion of king crabs , invasion of midges , island disappears , islands sinking , Creation of ISIS , itchier poison ivy , jellyfish explosion , jets fall from sky , jet stream drifts north , Kew Gardens taxed , kidney stones , kidney stones again , killer cornflakes , killing us , kitten boom , koalas under threat , krill decline , lake and stream productivity decline , lake empties , lake shrinking and growing , landslides , landslides of ice at 140 mph , lawsuits increase , lawsuit successful , lawyers' income increased (surprise surprise!) , lawyers want more , legionnaires' surge , lives saved , lizards change sex , Loch Ness monster dead , Locust plagues suppressed , Longer wprk breaks , Lopsided Earth , lush growth in rain forests , Malaria , mammoth dung melt , mango harvest fails , Maple production advanced , Maple syrup shortage , marine diseases , marine food chain decimated , Meaching (end of the world) , Mediterranean rises , megacryometeors , Melanoma , Melanoma decline , Mental health of farmers , meteors from space , methane emissions from plants , methane burps , methane runaway , melting permafrost , Middle Kingdom convulses , migration , migration difficult (birds) , migratory birds huge losses , microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly , minorities hit , monkeys on the move , Mont Blanc grows , monuments imperiled , moose dying , more bad air days , more research needed , mortality increased , mountain (Everest) shrinking , mountaineers fears , mountains break up , mountains green and flowering , mountains taller , mortality lower , murder higher , Mutate humans , Myanmar cyclone , narwhals at risk , National security implications , native wildlife overwhelmed , natural disasters quadruple , new islands , next ice age ,
     
  24. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    NFL threatened , Nile delta damaged , noctilucent clouds , no effect in India , Northwest Passage opened , nuclear plants bloom , oaks dying , oaks move north , ocean acidification , ocean acidification faster , ocean dead zones unleashed , ocean deserts expand , ocean waves speed up , oceans noisier , opera house to be destroyed , outdoor hockey threatened , ozone repair slowed , ozone rise , Pacific dead zone , penguin chicks frozen , personal carbon rationing , pest outbreaks , pests increase , phenology shifts , plankton blooms , plankton destabilised , plants lose protein , plants march north , plants move uphill , polar bears aggressive , polar bears cannibalistic , polar bears deaf , polar bears drowning , polar bears eating themselves, , polar tours scrapped , popcorn rise , porpoise astray , profits collapse , prostitution , prostitution (again) , psychiatric illness , puffin decline , radars taken out , railroad tracks deformed , rainfall increase , rape wave , refugees , refugees again , reindeer endangered , release of ancient frozen viruses , resorts disappear , rice threatened , rice yields crash , rift on Capitol Hill , rioting and nuclear war , Rise and Fall of Rome , river flow impacted , rivers raised , roads wear out , robins rampant , rocky peaks crack apart , roof of the world a desert ,rooftop bars , Ross river disease , ruins ruined , Russia under pressure , salinity reduction , salinity increase , Salmonella , Salmon Decline , satellites accelerate , school closures , sea level rise , sea level rise faster , seals mating more , sewer bills rise , severe thunderstorms , sex change , sexual promiscuity , shark attacks , sharks booming , sharks moving north , sheep shrink , shop closures , short-nosed dogs endangered , shrinking ponds , shrinking shrine , ski resorts threatened , skin cancer , slow death , smaller brains , smog , snowfall increase , snowfall heavy , soaring food prices ,
     
  25. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    societal collapse , soil change , songbirds change eating habits , sour grapes , space problem , spectacular orchids , spiders invade Scotland , squid aggressive giants , squid population explosion , squid tamed , squirrels reproduce earlier , stingray invasion , storms wetter , stormwater drains stressed , street crime to increase , subsidence , suicide , swordfish in the Baltic , Tabasco tragedy , taxes , tectonic plate movement , teenage drinking , terrorism , terrorism again , threat to peace , ticks move northward (Sweden) , tides rise , tigers eat people , tomatoes rot , tornado outbreak , tourism increase , trade barriers , trade winds weakened , traffic jams , transportation threatened , tree foliage increase (UK) , tree growth slowed , trees in trouble , trees less colourful , trees more colourful , trees lush , tropics expansion , tropopause raised , truffle shortage , truffles down , turtles crash , Turbulence in air travel , turtle feminised , turtles lay earlier , UFO sightings , UK coastal impact , UK Katrina , uprooted - 6 million , Vampire bats , Vampire moths , Venice flooded , violin decline , volcanic eruptions , volcanic eruptions redux , Iceland volcano eruption , walrus pups orphaned , walrus stampede , war , war between US and Canada , wars over water , wars sparked , wars threaten billions , wasps , water bills double , water scarcity (20% of increase) , water stress , weather out of its mind , weather patterns awry , Western aid cancelled out , West Nile fever , whales lose weight , whales move north , whales wiped out , wheat yields crushed in Australia , wildfires , wind shift , wind reduced , wine - harm to Australian industry , wine industry damage (California) , wine industry disaster (France) , wine - more English , wine industry disaster (US) , wine - more English , wine - England too hot , wine -German boon , wine - no more French , wine passé (Napa) , wine stronger , winters in Britain colder , winter in Britain dead , witchcraft executions , wolves eat more moose , wolves eat less , workers laid off , World at war , World War 4 , World bankruptcy , World in crisis , World in flames , Yellow fever

    Whew! That's a whole lot of **** to blame on a degree or two of temperature.
     
  26. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    After reading five of the links, I have come to the scientific conclusion that the earth is 100% safe from the threat of man made global warming.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  27. militaryhorn

    militaryhorn Cocky & Relaxed Like Dionysus

    Disappointed that you were able to post a link for all those sites but couldn't even post the link to the main web site.:facepalm::beertoast:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    Don't know how that happened either.
     
  29. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    Lack of ready access to abortion is the primary cause of global warming, according to a new interview with radical feminist Gloria Steinem.
    The founder of Ms. magazine had no trouble linking two of the emblematic leftist causes into one mega issue, arguing that lack of access to “reproductive health services” leads to overpopulation, which in turn causes the earth to warm uncontrollably.

    Asked by Refinery29 whether climate change wasn’t also a “feminist” issues, Ms. Steinem ran with the question, connecting a series of invisible dots into a diatribe against the evils of patriarchy.

    “Are you kidding me? Listen, what causes climate deprivation is population. If we had not been systematically forcing women to have children they don’t want or can’t care for over the 500 years of patriarchy, we wouldn’t have the climate problems that we have. That’s the fundamental cause of climate change,” she said.

    “Even if the Vatican doesn’t tell us that,” she added.
     
  30. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I didn't want a second child. My ex badgered me about it for several years before I gave in. She was obsessed with not having an only child; I was obsessed with the fact that our marriage was failing. So she wore me down. We had a beautiful daughter and our marriage ended.

    Very sad but my daughter is such a blessing.

    I don't know how Gloria has the nerve to act like women have been forcefully raped by their husbands all these years. I guess that is her take on it. It's not mine at least not in my experience. It seems every woman I meet has to be freakin' handed a crown and a coach made from a pumpkin along with a copy of my financial statement and a pledge to honor their list of demands for a fulfilling life just to get them to go out on a date.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    Last edited: May 15, 2017

Share This Page