Immigration Reform

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by BrntOrngStmpeDe, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    I find it very interesting that the major negotiating over immigration reform seems be coming down to Labor and Biz. Despite all the rhetoric over the issue the last few years being largely focused on border security and the burden on government services, and fairness and families, when you get right down to has been largely the economics that have driven this issue.

    Why has this part of the public debate remained largely in the shadows?

    Big business gains by having immigrants and big labor loses (at least it does for its members). So why haven't the news shows been debating these aspects of "Comprehensive" immigration reform?
  2. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    You mean money is actually driving our immigration debate and policy? What a shock!
  3. majorwhiteapples

    majorwhiteapples 5,000+ Posts

    Can you define Big Business for me? I think companies with thousands and thousands of employees and I am just not seeing a whole lot of immigrant workers at GM, IBM, or any company like that, most of big business has HR departments that scrutinize and do background checks.

    I see most illigeal hiring more in the construction, agriculture, and services(cleaning, cooking) services. Most of those companies from my experience are not big businesses and the federal government does not help them determine a person's immigrant status, the Federal government leaves it up to the employer who can't afford a big HR department.

    Again, when you say Big Business to what businesses are you refering too?
  4. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 5,000+ Posts

    This morning I heard that Reid said after immigration reform was approved they would make sure the borders were secure.

    Aren't they already secure?
  5. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

  6. GreenDragonSix

    GreenDragonSix 100+ Posts

    Our Borders are not secure...nor ever will they ever be. 20,000 Border Patrol guards can't stop what happens every day! And the illegal immigrants are not just Mexicans but people from all over South America. The cartels have a hand in any major city in the US..Mara Salvatrucha 13 gang here in he US are used by the cartels to smuggle drugs and humans (human smuggling) --> In the movie 'End of Watch' you can see evidently the big money involved in human smuggling and the price paid by those who paid to be smuggled. And I haven't even mentioned the drug problem because of our border security.

    The Link

    McALLEN — Illegal immigrants have started surrendering to local Border Patrol agents after crossing the Rio Grande, convinced they’ll be released by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which recently turned hundreds of immigrants lose to save money.
    In preparation for the sequester — federal spending cuts forced by Congress’ inability to reach a budget deal — ICE released several hundred low-risk illegal immigrants from detention centers last month and placed them on supervised released instead. The news reached illegal immigrants preparing to cross the border.
    “These are people that are just voluntarily turning themselves in to our agents with the expectation they’ll be released,” said Border Patrol Agent Paul Perez, president of the Rio Grande Valley union of the National Border Patrol Council. “When you cross with the expectation that you’ll be released, there’s no need to hide, there’s no need to run. You just look for a uniformed agent and turn yourself in.”
    ICE stopped releasing immigrants after the cost-cutting move sparked public outcry.
    On March 3, many illegal immigrants detained at Border Patrol’s McAllen Station asked about being released, said agency spokesman Enrique Mendiola. Apparently, the illegal immigrants heard that ICE released detainees and wanted similar treatment.
    “We make the arrests, we do the processing and then we hand them over,” Mendiola said, adding that Border Patrol doesn’t handle long-term detention — or release.
    Neither Perez nor local rank-and-file agents knew how many illegal immigrants voluntarily surrendered with the expectation ICE would release them. McAllen-based immigration attorney Carlos M. Garcia, who regularly visits the East Hidalgo Detention Center in La Villa and the Port Isabel Detention Center in Los Fresnos, said he hadn’t heard about any such cases.
    “I think in general they would rather avoid detection or contact with the government,” Garcia said.
    The behavior described by Border Patrol agents at the McAllen Station seems unlikely, said John-Michael Torres, a spokesman for La Unión Del Pueblo Entero, which advocates for immigration reform. Generally, immigrants cross the border looking for work and attempt to avoid scrutiny from government authorities.
    Some rank-and-file agents have speculated that illegal immigration might increase thanks to the ICE cost-saving program.
    In December, agents arrested 2,758 people, according to McAllen Station data released by Customs and Border Protection. The number held steady during January, when agents arrested 2,815 people.
    In February, though — the month ICE began releasing illegal immigrants to save money — agents arrested 4,777 people, according to CBP data. What caused the spike isn’t clear.
    Typically, CBP doesn’t release station-specific numbers, but The Monitor obtained internal data from the McAllen Station. Mendiola confirmed the monthly statistics.
    Other parts of the sequester, which will cut $85 billion in federal spending, will further affect border security, Perez said.
    In the Rio Grande Valley Sector, agents typically work 10-hour shifts. To save money, they might start working eight-hour shifts starting next month, Perez said. Additionally, agents might face 14 furlough days — essentially unpaid vacation. Overtime would drop severely.
    “The coyotes and those folks listen to what’s happening here,” said U.S. Rep. Henry Cuellar, D-Laredo. “They’re probably getting the impression, ‘Hey, there are going to be less people working. There will be less security.’”
    The sequester also will affect cross-border trade and travel, Cuellar said, extending waits at international bridges and slowing commerce.
    While the United States must reduce the federal deficit, the abrupt cuts weren’t the best solution, Cuellar said.
    “We do need to agree on reducing the deficit,” Cuellar said. “But heck, let’s do it right.”
  7. 77horn

    77horn 500+ Posts

  8. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    I think it is important to talk about because right now the 'assurances' that the GOP are seeking that this is 'the last time', seem to be centered around the idiotic arguement of border enforcement and fences...again.

    Immigrants come here primarily for jobs. If there are no jobs, then the vast majority stay where they are. The end of our border issue will only come when we finally say to busines (large and small), "if you hire illegals you will pay a large financial penalty, if you do it again, you will go to jail"

    Only then will the draw of jobs be reduced. Only then will the flow of low skilled labor slow.

    The border is 1969 miles. If you assume that we need about 3 guys per mile to be effective. that's almost 6,000 guards X 3 shifts. plus all the overhead and main facilities...into perpetuity. Way too expensive. It will never be fully funded, even if it did have a chance to actually work.

    I say:
    1. make the US employers pay regular wages.
    2. Make the US employers pay the visa cost
    3. Make the US employers pay to give the worker a 2nd grade english speaking capability
    4. vet the workers for criminal history
    5. make the US employers pay for a 1 week citizenship class

    If they do this, then let in as many immigrants as the employers want to sponsor.

    1. Everyone becomes legal
    2. Everyone pays taxes
    3. market forces dictate the 'right' number
    4. does away with the need for expensive border enforcement
    5. gets them all registered and speaking passable english

    The cost of a program like this would be built into the product/service that they provide and the market would determine if it is all worth it or not.
  9. Roger35

    Roger35 2,500+ Posts

    Looking at the immigration issue, my question is: If republicans agree to immigration reform that includes an eventual path to citizenship, would that not turn the base of the party against them? Wouldn't they even consider abandoning the republican party? [​IMG]
  10. msdw24

    msdw24 1,000+ Posts

    If the Repubs go along with this "immigration" reform crap I am through with the party. They can't make a stand on anything it seems like. They cave on taxees, the 2nd ammendment, "immigration", and everything else.

    The party will bend over backwards to fight abortion and gay marriage, but will fold like a cheap suit on the important stuff like taxes, budget, spending, etc.

    I'm done [​IMG]
  11. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

  12. dheiman

    dheiman 1,000+ Posts

  13. Larry T. Spider

    Larry T. Spider 1,000+ Posts

  14. majorwhiteapples

    majorwhiteapples 5,000+ Posts

    Illegal Immigration today is not what it was in the 1980's. In the 80's it would be people coming across the river or overland for a few months at a time and bringing money back home or sending it back home. Now Illegal Immigration is a big Cartel business, smuggling families across the border to live here permanently with fake ID's, working menial local business jobs at companies that can't afford to do background checks on every employess. They also set up each of those families with all the welfare benefits possible, WIC, Food Stamps, unemployement checks, tax refund checks, you name the Welfare program and it is utilized by the Cartels and they take their cut from each and every illegal they get across the border. There are more than 10-11 illegal immigrants in this country, I would guess that number is close to 20-25 million people.

    It completely baffles me that people just turn a blind eye and think that this is not an epidemic, that is destroying this country from the inside out.

    The border needs to be shut down and if you are illegal and you have been using a fake ID to get a job, deportation is what needs to happen.

    Once that is done, and the border is secure, I would consider an amnesty plan with significant tax penalties and guidelines.
  15. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

  16. Roger

    Roger 1,000+ Posts

  17. majorwhiteapples

    majorwhiteapples 5,000+ Posts

    To add to Roger's statement, E-Verify is another federally funded joke of a program that does not work.

    If an employer challanges a person's id or papers, especially an illegal, do you know what happens? They get a call from lawyer that is paid by the Cartel to scare the small business owner of a major lawsuit and the SBO has to hire an attorney and incur more expenses. Do not put this on big business put this on our politicians and how crooked they are!!!!!
  18. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

  19. Roger

    Roger 1,000+ Posts

  20. Larry T. Spider

    Larry T. Spider 1,000+ Posts

    Well, bob perry just passed away at 80.
  21. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    E-Verify does the only it can do; Verify that the SSN and other date including borth date and name match.

    One problem is you can't use e-verify to screen a prosepctive employee. The person must have been hired before you do the E-verify check. That can be a waste of time especially for small businesses.
    Still it is better than nothing and should be REQUIRED instead of voluntary.
  22. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

  23. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

  24. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    Good points Deez.

    1. Is there a cost to e-verify..sure..but it's worth it
    2. Will it be perfect it will be substantially better than what we have now

    IMO the bottom line is that it is cheaper than the border fence approach that we are leaning on now. As long as there is a job, immigrants will find a way in. The only place we can reliably put safeguards is at the point of hiring. Will it raise the employers cost, yes. But it is probably the same employer that is paying below market wages to begin to avoid cost.

    We don't have to have a 100% solution. If we get to a 90% solution then we stop becoming an immigration magnet. If the odds are substantially stacked against you getting a job when you get here, you simply won't come. If you go three months without a job, you'll go back to where you can get one.

    Mark my words on this. We are going to get a bill that has a path to citizen, amnesty, and more money for the border. We may even get a law that says employers can't hire illegals. What we won't get is actual enforcemen of said law. We will be having this debate again in 15 years after another 15 million illegal immigrants have made their way in.

    I can foresee a situation where small business outsources the E-verify portion to a central entity like they do with drug screening. The central E-verify biz will effectively become the indemnifier and insurance to the small biz.
  25. Shark4

    Shark4 2,500+ Posts

  26. majorwhiteapples

    majorwhiteapples 5,000+ Posts

    this subject is so lacking common sense, if you are in this country illegally, get the f**k out. There are alternatives, don't let them in and the price for those jobs rise, simple economics.

    Whether it is big business or not, which it is not, cost of food will rise, granted, but the cost of state and federal welfare will drop.......I will pay an extra dollar for bread and tomatoes vs. Obamacare and what is transpiring in this country.

    Inflation is about to hit this country like we haven't seen since the 1970's......
  27. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts


    I don't believe you can secure our borders. We can probably stem the flow but the likely result of making the southern border more solid is that the problem will move to the northern border because it will be wide open. It will be more expensive for illegal immigrants but if there are still jobs for them to come to, they will risk it. While hispanics from central and south america are certainly the bulk of illegal immigrants, they are not the only source. The rest of them come in via other means. As long as the enticement of a job is here, they will still come.

    If E-verify becomes the law and every person has to go through it, it will prevent illegal immigration. If we set up E-verify shops (could be a private business) and there is an ICE agent sitting in the lobby, ready to question you if you pop illegal, then only the most foolhardy illegal would dare apply for the job to begin with. The odds are just too great that they will get sent to jail. With that, most of the illegals would just go home eventually.

    Controlling the flow of illegals has never been a logistical problem. It is easy. It has alwasy been a political and economics problem.

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