Discussion in 'West Mall' started by ShAArk92, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. Monahorns

    Monahorns 2,500+ Posts

    That is supposedly why we went there in the first place. But Al Qaeda and ISIS existed in Iraq even with Hussein removed so where is the upside to spending millions of $s, US soldiers' lives, and even thousands innocent Iraqi civilians?

    I don't see an argument at all. Maybe if Hussein was in power, Iraq would be an epicenter of violence and terrorist activity? You mean like RIGHT NOW?
  2. Monahorns

    Monahorns 2,500+ Posts

    So basically the US is a much better place without the war and Iraq is better off too? At least thousands of Iraqi citizens would still be alive. The ancient Iraqi Christian population would still be in relative stability. No war sounds like a win-win.
  3. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    What you're missing is that these guys simply exploited a situation. It wasn't the only option on the menu. It wouldn't necessarily have taken the same form that it did, but it could very easily and very plausibly could have happened through some other means.

    I didn't say there was an upside. Like I said, the war was a mistake. I'm not defending the war.

    It would have been. Again, I'm not defending the war.
  4. nashhorn

    nashhorn 2,500+ Posts

    Well there you go.
  5. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Link? I'm of the belief that ISIS was born in the prisons in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Hussein. It found roots amidst the suddenly displaced Bathists who went from ruling the country to being discriminated against by the majority Sunnis. We didn't arm them but given their former places of power they had easy access to weapons and training to use them. The religious fundamentalism was simply the conduit to coalescing this downtrodden group of tribesman.
  6. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    This. Tge fundamentalists exploited the Bathists.
  7. Monahorns

    Monahorns 2,500+ Posts

    Anything is possible. I am not going to build my opinion on that and the US government shouldn't build policy on that. ISIS were the same people the US defeated as Al Qaeda in Iraq. Could they have regrouped at some point, some where else to cause problems? Sure. But that doesn't justify giving weapons to them and point them at Assad. That is a non sequitur.
  8. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Again, you're arguing the issue as though I'm defending the Iraq War. I'm not.
  9. Monahorns

    Monahorns 2,500+ Posts

    Ep. 1469 Scott Horton on Iran, Syria, and His Critics | Tom Woods

    This is the first step down the rabbit hole. Scott Horton is an Austinite who follows this stuff for a living and researches it all very thoroughly. I already know how you will respond to what he has to say. But he is the most believable I am hearing out there.

    ISIS was born out of Al Qaeda. Not necessarily Baathists. Baathists were Sunni, so maybe. But the US used Sunni tribal leaders to defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq because they were seen as foreigners. Sunni Iraqi tribes did not like Al Qaeda. They were murdered indiscriminately much like they did in Syria.

    No. Obama armed them. Of course it was the military who did it. The same military community who howls every time Trump says he wants to leave. This is their baby.

    I know this is a hard pill to swallow. But there are traitors in the US military and the Obama administration including Barack, because they armed our enemies, the same group of people who executed 911 and attacked Americans every chance they had. They became allies of the enemies of the American people.

    Let me say this another way. Assad never attacked American civilians. Al Qaeda attacked American civilians. The US military gave weapons to Al Qaeda. They then rebranded themselves as ISIS.

    Actually, the US government exploited the fundamentalists.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    The Washington Post: Netanyahu announces he can’t form a government, opening door for Israeli president to tap political rival to build a coalition
  11. mchammer

    mchammer 5,000+ Posts

    SH, what does your post have to do with this thread? Please explain yourself. /sarc
  12. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Recognizing the '/s', it relates directly to the initial conversation between Sharrk and I.

  13. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    still a bit early isn't it?

    Thought he had until the middle of November?
  14. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    from the article:

    "And Turkey launched an offensive against Kurdish fighters in northern Syria after President Trump said he was withdrawing U.S. troops, raising concerns in Israel about the value of American security guarantees."

    Hey guess what ... that's GONNA happen. It's gonna be Israel against the world real soon ... and that reality will be realized ... in a veritable FLASH. Today ... USA is a strong supporter of Israel ... tomorrow ... it'll be an alliance with Russia against Israel.
  15. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    He had 6-8 weeks and is giving up after only a few. Not sure of his angle unless he's trying to show the opposition can't form a government either thus wants to race to a 3rd vote.

    I'm still convinced nothing happens until Netanyahu's legal jeopardy is decided, at least nothing favorable for Bibbi.
  16. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    That's a bold prediction. I'm no fan of Israel as I think we let them drive our foreign policy but can't imagine jumping into bed WITH Russia against them.

    Is this being driven by your biblical beliefs?
  17. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    right ... that's why I wondered ... but as you mention, this may be a tactic.

    Like be on defense if you win the coin toss for overtime.

    I'm not married to Bibi ... and I could be completely wrong about his being the last Prime Minister ...

    Your article alludes to the chink in the US/Israel relationship armor with the simple redeployment of a US force which is less than a battalion ... NE Syria/Turkey border.

    My beliefs in the Word of God is instrumental to everything in my life ... but that doesn't invalidate. On the contrary, The Holy Bible has been a MAJOR confirmation.

    It's exceedingly clear Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchanezzer's dream of the statue ... the two legs represent a split Rome ... East/West. You're a smart guy and can prolly determine which one is which.

    A word to the wise. Thanks for asking.
  18. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    ... and the relations with Israel weren't exactly "enhanced" during Obama's tenure.

    So ... perhaps it's not as radical a prediction as one might otherwise believe.
  19. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Just to be clear, it's the support of Russia against Israel I'm guffawing about. Then again, I'm also guffawing at Trump's decisions in Syria which are certainly in Russia's interest.

    The US also joined with Russia in vetoing a Security Council proposal chastizing Turkey. Never thought that the US would side with our enemies over our allies but that's happening with more regularity these days.
    • Like Like x 1
  20. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    who are our allies/enemies?

    That's what I'm saying ... it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen fast .. and I think it's gonna happen relatively soon.
  21. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Enemies are much easier to spot than most. Russia is definitely on the list for most of us except for one currently powerful person.
    • Funny Funny x 1
  22. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    LOL ... well if you're anything, you're consistent.

    tell that "easy ID" thing to the fellas in 'Nam ... or even more recently ... 'Stan ... Iraq.

    Just watched Mission of Honor (IIRC) ... a Brit produced film about The Battle of Britain and the Poles who were formed into their own RAF squadron. They identified one of their pilots as having trouble seeing the Germans as the enemy after he saw the pilot in a Messerschmidt .... looked very much like himself.

    This should underscore the fact we all have a common enemy ... he is not of flesh/blood but he's about to become a clearer manifestation if we'll pay attention.
  23. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    @ShAArk92 Netanyahu was just indicted for corruption. I don't suspect this development is conducive to your prediction.
  24. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    you do or do not? :p

    Thanks for the ping, SH. I've been a bit out of the loop the last couple of weeks ... just doing flybys at HornFans.

    Interesting timing, though. I just saw this flash across the DebKa news alert. Their AG has cast quite a large net, indicting folks of whom I've never heard (which isn't earthshattering, the number of Israelis I do not know is quite substantial) ... but anyhow.

    yeah ... my prediction ... included Trump's plan for the Two-State solution.

    Do you think that's happening as the west watches this farce of an impeachment inquiry? Can hardly get the weather out of the news for all the dissecting how this will play to impeach 45 and send to the Senate. (I do not expect that to happen, btw, unless Pelosi has promised McConnell some really good stuff!)

    Also, since that first post on BN's effort, he surrendered the campaign and "punted" ... now we are a couple of weeks into the 6 for Gantz.

    I'll admit I'm not following Gantz' effort as closely as I was BN's ... but that seems to be a tactic akin to electing to play defense in the first OT ... except he got to play offense a few downs, THEN punt. So, IIRC, we are about 2 weeks into that 6 week deal ... so call it, now ... Mid December before Gantz has to "shoot/score" or relinquish the baton to BN again, which makes end of January/first of Feb the deadline ... almost a full year since the election?
  25. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    ... the indictment isn't "good" for the prediction, no ... but it doesn't invalidate it either.

    We'll see. Thanks for keeping an eye.
  26. nashhorn

    nashhorn 2,500+ Posts

    And that’s how this works, and everything in Washington.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    Thanks to @Seattle Husker ...

    It occurred to me ... doubtful there's coincidence in the simultaneous investigation of corruption in the leaders of BOTH the USA and Israel. That this is a tactic to remove them from office to prevent realization of their purpose. And their alleged misdeeds are effectively unrelated ... e.g. they're not involved in the same alleged misdeed.

    Meanwhile, Iran, Turkey ... and Russia. greater aggression is immanent. Possibly MUCH greater.

    As SH worded it ... this "tends to be conducive" to the trend which is realizing 2500 year old prophesy.
  28. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    I PROMISE I was unaware of this letter when I wrote the preceding post ...

    Take a peek at this letter to the UN from Congress. Written as the impeachment inquiries were "getting returns" on its start.

    I have a couple thoughts. What are yours?
  29. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    @ShAArk92 You lost me a bit with your 2 recent posts so lets return to your original starter post on thus thread that prompted my disagreement. I've bolded the specific passage I responded to.

    To summarize my initial reply, nothing the Trump administration was doing moved Israel and Palestine closer to a Peace Deal. Not the Palestinian Economic program that was void of Palestinians, not the movement of the US embassy to Jerusalem or the recent reversal in US Policy to recognize Israel's right to steal Palestinian land and call it legal, against all International laws.

    Hindsight so far has is on my side on spades. The letter you posted shows concern that the conflict could escalate. Think that gets anyone closer to a peace deal?

    It appears we both agree a 2-state solution is the only workable solution. There is zero chance that the Palestinians peacefully or even by force agree to any 1-sided plan in which Israel gets everything it wants and Palestine simply grins and nods "Thank You" which is what Trump, Kushner and the indicted Bibby have been pushing. It's no secret that Hezbollah has spent decades arming itself for such a moment.
  30. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    You are correct that they are completely unrelated. Bibby's alleged corruption is much more serious and likely to result in his removal from office, if he's not pushed out before the trial. You now have members of his own party ready to run against him.

    To be sure, the "peace" plan was DOA before Bibby's legal challenges.

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