I'm glad, really I am, that you don't work if you can swing it and you are happy. I do completely understand what you are getting at, and yes there are jobs where you have to work a lot to get a project completed. However I do think that this is also a cultural thing. In the UK, the country does not stop because people get a decent amount of time off. I'm in sales/account management, and my clients are very happy with the job I do. I work hard, but I don't often work late. I have no need to. Unless it's an emergency, things can wait till tomorrow. Anyway, my clients have gone home too so there is no one to call anyway! There are people here I think in financial investments in the city that do work bloody long hours, and yes they make a crapload more money than me. However, I really would rather not do that, and not be that wealthy, but have my life to me. I think a lot of people think like me here, and I would like to think that given the choice, many in the USA would have the same attidute of knowing that they will be comfortable, but not really rich, but...they would also have more free time. Thoughts?
my work/ balance comes in waves: sometimes i'm able to take vacation and be at home, and other times i'm working til 11 pm. i'm on salary at my company, so there's no chance of overtime and no incentive for me when i pull down 70 hour weeks. my company sees no problem working me hard and keeping me in my place, and since there's not much i can do about it right now i make up for that by being friends with our timesheet guy. i tell him when i'm taking an extra day here or there, and he's cool with it, because sometimes i'm out drinking beers with him.
In relative terms (US vs rest of the world) I think we value material items as signs of success/importance more than others. This is what drives our overall economy to be one of the most robust and it also drives our corporate focus. To keep pace with our peers and show our success, we must work as hard or harder. If you are satisfied with less(rewards), you can look for a job that requires less (time/days). On the average, I don't think Americans want to accept less (percieved as underperformers by their peers) and therefor don't as a whole push for the companies to require less (time/days). Until we get 'OK' with keeping our cars for 6-8 years and not buying the latest WIIs systems or flat screen TVs then we have to accept the consequence; working more to maintain purchasing power.
Again I don't disagree with a word you wrote. But what I think your posts omit is the global dimension of the world today and the even greater globalization which will exist in the future. As I pointed out those London financial guys did not work long hours twenty years ago. Then the US boys invaded their market and started kicking their ***. They responded. I could ramble at length about how I think globalization will change the competitive landscape. I'll try to limit it. The impact will be profound. There will be high value industries which produce exceptional per capita wealth. These industries are mostly "winner take all" industries. Nobody wants to buy medocre rock and roll songs, mediocre movies, the second best software package, microprocessor or router. The second best financial firm sucks wind. Nobody wants to watch second-tier soccer. And so on. Beyond the high value industries there will be the service industries and the industries which are very cost sensitive. For those in the service industries there is a ripple effect with being in an economy of successful industries. For those in industries which can't command a huge premium for a superior product (and that includes most industries) China, India and others will change life as we know it. If your kids don't want to be part of a team that creates a preeminent high value product they better be part of an economy that does, which means supporting a culture which is favorable to those in those endeavors. I don't think Europe "gets it".
I've taken the two worst schedules on the NY deal model for lawyers Tahoe describes above. I don't plan to stick around for the "good" schedules. My wife and I want to spend one month a year overseas with our kids. We want to take long weekends in the summer with and without our kids. We want to take Christmas off and Spring break off and we'd like a week just to ourselves. Then add in miscellaneous weekday events and we're left with a schedule that just doesn't work in this country. So, we're making up our own rules. I hope to close on our next venture in the coming months and while at first it will be as hard or harder than the big firm hours, in the long run it will be what we want -- either after we sell or in a few years when we grow into more employees/management. But no doubt, swimming upstream when you want to make good to great money is very, very, very difficult if not impossible. Heck, we've been on the search for 2 years now for the right opportunity. Tahoe is right, but our model just sucks.
I find it pretty pathetic that people find working so important that it should trump having a decent amount of time off. It goes beyond that as well Here in the US you are made to almost feel dirty when asking for time off. In most of the rest of the world it's not like that. In the US if you're out more than 2 days sick, most companies will ask you to bring in a doctor's note. In other countries they'll tell you to come back when you are feeling better. I find it absolutely atrocious where the US is on that list.
Tough to say Eric. Probably not as much as in the USA, but sure it can be done. The class system used to put a big wrench in the works and it still exists on some levels, although not like it used to. I know plenty of blue collar working class guys that are doing really well. Again, you can probably climb higher in the USA more easily, although I am only guessing at that. I think others have hit the nail on the head. Rightly or wrongly people place more value on quality of life, time off, etc. People do want nice things, but it's not as materialistic as in the USA and I guess you don't feel as judged in that sense.
All I can say to this, having worked for the man only a couple of times in my life, and for no more than 10 months of my total life, is that it's no better as a business owner. When I worked for the man I got my vacation/sick time and I'd be damned if I was working on the first two days of the NCAA tourney (just an example). Being in business for myself I've skipped only 1 day for the tourney in my work career (after never having even bothered going to school while the tourney was on). This is just one example. Really, working for yourself is worse from a time off perspective- b/c you aren't working for 1 manager you are working for like 20 clients or customers. The one thing that is better is that I never have to fake it- if I have nothing to do I watch tv in my office or goof off on the internet- no boss is going to tell me I have to "look" like I'm working- which is pretty cool. But as to time off- I've taken 3 vacatoins in the lasat 4 years, 2 of them of the 4 day weekend variety over a holiday like MLK or Labor day or something like that. I feel burned out a lot and work a lot of hours. I didn't get in until 10:00 today b/c I knew my morning would be empty, so that was cool- but right now I'm working (well waiting on someone else to get me something I need so I can get the hell out of here) until probably 7. I try to flex time myself as much as possible (iow if I work on saturday or I know I have to be at the office until 7 or 8 a couple nights that week) I'll try to blow off a morning or something. I figured it up and I had 12 days off last year (5 of which involved family deaths/funerals- not exactly vacation type stuff). Anyway, I'm giving my employees between 15 and 20 days olf this year- with vacation (off a week at a time) being more numerous for the more senior, while the new person (less then a year in) only gets one vacation week but 10 days for personal, sick, kids etc. The 20 day person gets up to 3 weeks vacation if she needs, but less sick. This seems reasonalbe to me. The thing is, with trying to operate with no "non-essential" personell, I can afford to pay everyone higher wages, but the downside is when someone's gone it puts a real strain on those that stay. I sympathise to some extent with the corporate guys, but it ain't much easier not working for "the man"
Ollie... Do they still do the tracking of students in the schools in the UK and Europe? If they do, wouldn't that make it harder to have that upward mobility?
I have been lucky. I was 31 before I worked more weeks than I was old. I built the AK pipeline with a little help from my friends and was overpaid and under worked. It was amazing how many people asked me (especially in the Lower 48) how I did not get bored with so much time off. After living the good life, I had a severe brain cramp and went to UT law school never intending to actually practice law. Next thing I knew, I was working long hours for a law firm. After 6 years, the brain cramp finally resolved and I quit and took a job with a corporation with generous vacation benefits at least by U.S. standards (6.5 weeks combined vacation and sick leave.) Unless the stock skyrockets someday, I will never make as much money, but I value my free time much more than the extra money. A couple of years ago, I took a 4 week vacation to NZ and Australia feeling pretty proud of myself that I was able to get away for 4 weeks in a row. But most of the Europeans we met on the trip all felt sorry for us that we only had a month to explore NZ and Australia. I keep thinking that all of America will wake up someday so burned out that they can’t go on. But there does not appear to be any let up in the hours Americans are willing to work. Now that Crackberries are the rage, my colleagues seem to compete for the number of e-mails they can answer after hours. Oh well, as competitive as I am, it is one competition that I let them win. Even when they finally go on vacation, listening to their stories, it seems they don’t remember how to relax or have fun. Part of the problem is that most Americans live beyond their means so they are always scared of losing their jobs and lifestyle. I personally believe one of the keys to being happy is to always live below your means. A job is so much less stressful when you know that financially at any time you can tell your boss to take his/her job and shove it.
I've lived in 3 regions and experienced the schedules for a major coropration. I will say that everyone is much the same they just work different amounts. I.e. asians work more and get more done but there is no glaring efficiency improvement it's just a factor of more time - more work - more output (this is for Brits - not the rest of europe who are lazy as f**k and highly inefficient other than the Germans in my experience) Who has the best lives? British Standard of living is far lower than comparable US in every way. Everything costs more, there is horrid customer service, no convenience etc but it's still a fun place to live because they are so into leisure. They take pleasure in Leisure. I love that everything shuts down for 3 weeks in dec and 4 in august. You can take 20 days off. I really miss that in england. You get that in Asia because they have small amounts of private holidays but huge amts of public ones - like a day off for all kinds of od chinese things. US policy sucks, Englands rules, Asia is cool in a different way.
I work in investment management in London, but lived/worked in Texas until a year ago. I'd be interested in input on these two observations that I think lend themselves to different work/life balance between the two countries: 1. The class system is much more pervasive in the UK, and as a result, I think that many people are happy to stay where they are career-wise because they feel their options to "upgrade" are limited. Thus, they are either happy or resigned to do enough to do their job but not much more. 2. People here do not seem as worried about the quality of their retirement, because there is a perception that their government will take care of them. (Whether the government will be able to do that is another issue altogether.) My experience in the U.S. was totally different, and I think that leads to a mentality where we as Americans are trying to do as much as we can at a young age to ensure a good life over the long-term. Thoughts?
Tahoe, you use Muschamp and your expectation that he will be working 70 hours a week as an example, and I don't doubt that he will. But then there's Steve Spurrier. He made Florida an elite program and won an NC while working around 40 hours a week and he mocks coaches that sleep in the film room. Who's to say which approach is better? I bet more coaches work those ridiculously long hours -- Spurrier is an odd, cantankerous duck. The sample size is smaller; few coaches have the nads to tell the AD that they will be golfing every day, even during the season. OTOH, how many coaches that work two or three times as hard as Spurrier have failed utterly?
Here's an article on MSN that speaks to the American chase for "necessities" that leads to the crunch. I think the ever increasing list of "necessities" has lead us to a requirement to work more as a whole. Once the herd has started running towards the cliff, it is hard to get them to change course. articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/HomeMortgageSavings/MiddleClassCrunchConundrum_SeriesHome.aspx?GT1=10825 I haven't lived in a lot of other countries but it seems to me like other countries are ok with fewer 'things'. Instead of 5 suits, they've got 3. Instead of 6 TV's, they've got 2...and so on. And they are happier with it for longer. Americans as a whole have to trade up every couple of years in order to feel successful. If we are going to consume like this, then we have to be ready to work the schedules we do.
I don't think so Eric. You have middle school and then you go to a high school in your area. There are comprenensives which are public schools, or there are private schools if your family wants to pay for a private education. There used to be more Grammar Schools, but I don't think they are as common now days. Here is something from the BBC that explains the school system... The Link As for the other comments. Yep, as was said I think people in the US do want more things and it's a case of 'stuff' = success, which although is probably the case in most places, not such a big emphasis is placed on it elsewhere. By the way, I was chatting to our HR Manager about this today. Recently he had our US counterpart visiting our UK offices, and she was telling him that a lot of people in her office will sit around even if there is nothing to do once they have completed all their work, because the perception of them not being in the office until late, was very negative. Here, as I said, although you can on occaision work later, you don't get looked down upon if you get out of work on time, or sometimes even early if you are all caught up, etc. No one bats an eye as long as you do your job well.
Tropheus- congrats to you and your wife- all I can say is I thnk that has got to be an extreme minority- everyone I know who makes six figures works pretty damn hard to do so- it's generally not a 10 hour a week job. I've asked everyone that works here (especially when we were going nuts) if they would rather have me hire somone else, which would mean making their life easier but then less money in the longrun (b/c they are all bonused off productiviity). To a person, they have all said no- they'd rather work longer/harder/more stressful hours with more pressure in order to maximize their pay amount. So this is, I think a top down thing in America. I'd bet that somewhere around 80% in America would value the money element over the time element.
'I haven't lived in a lot of other countries but it seems to me like other countries are ok with fewer 'things'. Instead of 5 suits, they've got 3. Instead of 6 TV's, they've got 2...and so on. And they are happier with it for longer. Americans as a whole have to trade up every couple of years in order to feel successful. ' Asians are like htis on steroids. The secondary market for cars here is great because everyone dumps theirs after 2 years. Every chinese girl has 5 prada bags etc. They work their *** off to have it all too.
Interesting takes on the roots of the Euro vs American drivers. Specific to Americans, we are extremely competitives SOB's, and our significant others, if Houston is any model, are damn good at finding necessity in spending a constant percentage of the jack, whatever that may be. These two forces can be self reinforcing and contribute to the ratcheting up effect. Like SD, I would have thought we would top out at levels less that this. I was wrong. In my cube farm, great gobs are here at 6 am and even more work til 6 pm. Most have obscene commutes to Rosenburg or the Woodlands or some such wifely/kidley demand. I have a 4 minute commute so my net hours are less than anyone's, even if I work 12. I can make the next 3 holding my breath, I don't know how the rest of these folks can make 10 or 20. It makes me think the American economy really has to have a slackening of trajectory, when all is said and done. The highest growth rates will remain elsewhere. Let us become Europeans. Open that wine bottle. See you in two months.
Great thread Ollie, thought I'd give it another kick. I spent a few years working in Scandinavia and loved the emphasis people have on holiday and travel. If you choose to take holiday in the summer your company has to give you the option to take four straight weeks if you desire. So I have to disagree with the statement "In the UK, the country does not stop because people get a decent amount of time off." Works for the UK but have you ever been to a Scandinavian country in August? I remember reading an interesting study a few years back that said Europeans would usually choose more holiday to more money while Americans usually choose more money. I think the attitude of many Europeans is, " I have enough stuff, I want to spend more time enjoying my life". There are however some serious downsides to this attitude seen in employment rates and the availability of lower paying service sector jobs (see riots in Paris).The Link I'm living in Spain these days and you can forget all about "quality of life". These mofos just want to pursue laziness 24/7. I have no doubt it's somehow Franco's fault. While I love the US, if one can find a good job in Europe (which is the tricky part) I think the quality of life choice is pretty clear. Although being away from family, the horns and Austin is never easy. A job is so much less stressful when you know that financially at any time you can tell your boss to take his/her job and shove it. SDHorn
