My humble suggestion for keeping this thread on track would be that you don't post questions unless you are at least willing to respond to the OP first. As far as the saved thing, It means very different things depending on what religion (or even sect within that religion) you are talking about. Netslave indicated his basic affiliation as southern baptist, so that should give you some hint as to his soteriology, Ryan.
Dyonisus, Ryan, if you were heading down a path that led to certain death, and someone were to come and rescue from that path and put you on a path that leads back home, back to life, would you not say that the person who rescued you actually "saved" you? That's what "saved" means in the Christian Faith. It means that while we were heading down a path that leads to death, Jesus saved us by taking that path for us, in our place, so that we wouldn't have to.
Raised: Buddhist Currently: looking for a religion I've spent most of my life around atheists, agnostics, and new agey types and found them to be supremely annoying and flaky. The people of faith that I know I've found to be much more fun, grounded, and generally happier. I've had very, very positive experiences talking with Christians.
Raised Catholic. Both parents were from strong Catholic families. Both went to Catholic school through 12th grade. Dad even went to Villanova, a Catholic college, through his masters degree. I attended church with the family pretty much every Sunday growing up. At some point along the way, my dad dropped out of the activity. His lack of participation was never really discussed. I made it through my first communion and was headed toward confirmation before dropping out myself. When I was kid, I just sort of took everything they said in church at face value. It all seemed to make perfect sense. Over time though, I started to question some of the beliefs. Jesus died and then came back life? REALLY? That seems a bit far fetched. Surely there has to be a more rational explanation. By the time I was in 8th grade, I would sit there in church and think to myself, "This stuff is really pretty wacko. Do these people really believe all this stuff?" Separate from that, if you grew up in southwest Houston, in the '70's and '80's you likely have quite a few Jewish friends and acquaintances. Even if I could accept all the other the Catholic teachings at face value, I wasn't comfortable buying into the fact that all my Jewish friends were going to Hell because they didn't believe Jesus was the son of God. It all seemed very exclusionary. Elitist at best. Hateful at worst. Clearly not my cup of tea. At the same time, my parents were trying to figure out where I was going to attend high school. I was zoned to Houston Sharpstown, but they said there was no way I was going there. Sahrpstown's academics weren't up to their standards. They were pushing me toward Stake Jesuit. I took the entrance exam for Strake and scored 98th percentile. I went in, along with my dad, for my interview with Father Orlando which went something like this: FO: So, Bernard, Why do you want to go to Strake Jesuit? Me: I don't. My parents made me come today. FO: Really? Why not. Me: I don't want to go school with all guys and no girls. FO: We have St. Agnes (all girls) right across the parking lot. Me: Sorry, not good enough. FO: Any other reasons? Me: Yeah, I'm not really into this whole religious thing. FO: Interesting. Tell me more. Me: I've been going to church my whole life, but the whole thing really doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me. FO: Interesting. We talked about a few other things like why my grades were so mediocre, yet I scored so high on their test. I never really cared much for school and never tried to get good grades. I always did just enough to get by and not much more. He sent my dad out of the room and asked some more questions: FO: Have you ever smoked pot? Me: No. FO: Has anyone ever offered you pot? Me: No. FO: If someone offered you pot, would you try it? Me: Yes. FO: Why? Me: Curiosity. I know some people who tried it and seem to like it for one reason or another. FO: Interesting. At the end of the interview he told me I was accepted to Strake should I care to attend. I talked my parents into letting me go to Houston Lamar. That was probably the first time I ever looked an adult in the eye and told him or her that I fundamentally disagreed with his or her belief system. Honestly, it felt pretty good. I was concerned that I'd get an earful from my dad as soon as we made it to the parking lot. Quite the opposite actually. He said I did just fine. Ever since then, I've only gone to church for weddings and funerals. I consider myself Atheist. In my opinion, religions have been created by humans for a number of reasons. First, to explain things that are unexplainable (i.e. What happens when you die? Why are we here? Where did we come from?). Second, to give people hope that there's something better out there for them while they live out their quietly desperate lives here on Earth. Third, to control the masses via threats of punishment in the afterlife if they don't follow the leader's man-made rules. I don't claim to have all the answers. I think where I differ from most is that I'm comfortable not knowing what none of us can possibly know. Others clearly feel the need to grasp on to something that offers and explanation, regardless of the absurdity. My life philosophy: 1. Enjoy myself as much as I can without bothering anyone else at the same time. 2. Try to bring joy to others as much as I can. I haven't perfected it by any means, but that's the plan. Bernard
Variety of Religious Experience, HF version. HJ's brother wrote the original, I believe. Seriously. Went to Church of Christ as a child thru about 8th grade. Struck me as "school" so I was serious about it. Assignments, etc. My mom had been Catholic, but couldn't go to (Catholic) Church as she married a divorced man in 1948. I didn't get this. Later, I was to not get the prohibition against dancing. My dad also did not go(Catholic or CoC). I think we went to this church as it was the church of our next door neighbors. An Assembly of God preacher lived across the street, several of the neighbors went there. One of those chose to try out "our" CoC one Sunday, I guess I was in the 5th grade. He suffered a massive heart attack and died during the service. I have to say, I was thinking wtf? So you get to about 12 and the talk turns to the age of accountability. My peers were getting baptized, it was the definite thing to do. But, you had to strip to your underwear and don a white robe. This thought, and I can remember my 12 year old boy reaction perfectly, creeped me out, seriously. My sphincter protection meter or something just went off scale. I declined to be baptized, but kept coming to Sunday School for a few years. I prayed regularly every night. Thank you for this day, for this world, everything in it, please have "insert girls name" like me, in Christ's name, amen. Every night. A few hundred in a row. The girls never came through, during this time. Occasionally I would request an intervention in football. Killeen beat Temple for the first time in 34 years, and UT won 1.5 NC's, about this time. I was keeping my options open. By about 15 I had been exposed to some non religious ideas. That is, anti religious ideas. I was offended, at first. Nightly I still prayed. I contemplated the spirit entering me and taking me, etc. Again I was creeped out by this thought, the meter cracking the glass. Incubus, succubus, pod people, these various Saturday afternoon movie images just said NO! And then I stopped going, stopped thinking about it, stopped praying, slowly. Coincident with a science education and a very liberal lifestyle learned at UT, which I loved dearly (lifestyle and institution), I found myself unable to accept the religious proposition in the main. No big deal. 30 years down the road, I'm as atheist as can be. I don't know whether to be "evangelical" in this regard, or not. I don't want to make family members unhappy, and certain discussions are surely likely to lead to this. My 24 year old son, also a UT engineering product, is quite vocal in his criticisms of religious ideas, to the dismay of his mostly female near family, i.e. my sisters, and his mother, and his sister. Why the preference of women to religious ideas? Never mind that question. I should say, I'm not anti religious. Rather, I'm committed to understanding of this world (not another). And this view involves understanding religion as a phenomena of this world, one of the most important in human psychology. Thanks for a good thread.
i grew up in a very secular household. nothing militantly secular, mind you. i once asked my mom what religion we were, and she said methodist. i asked my dad, and he boldly told me that he didn't know but he wished he was jewish, because, and i quote, "they take care of their own." i would scoff, and then he would point at his big nose. "i would fit right in!" he would say, and slap his thigh. i can respect that kind of honesty. and i have a big nose as well. thanks, dad. as for me, as i grew up in such a secular environment, i guess my current state should be no surprise. but i've gone through fits and starts. i remember getting my first living bible. my parents gave it to me. no instructions, just a "here is a book. you can read it it if you like." it had some dumbed down language for kids, a white cover, and some (very few) color illustrations. they were nice enough to highlight everything jesus said in red. i read that book almost cover to cover before the age of eight. i **** you not. and it put (har har) the fear of god into me. i remember lying awake at night worrying, but most likely not in the sense that you might imagine. i was scared of what happened if i died and there was nothing but death and nothing awaiting me. i could put up with eternal torment, and i could put up with heaven, for sure, but the concept of "nothing" was ****** up to me. i would go to sleep in fear that i would never wake up and "nothing" would await me - that i would cease to exist. this haunted my 6th and 7th year of life. i kind of got over it, but not really. i, to this day, fear sleep and the fears and doubts it brings. i read or drink myself to sleep. i drtive myself to exhaustion, no matter what, because sleep is where my biggest fear come. i'll awake some night with night terrors. in any case, i went to middle school and started attending my best friend's church - St Elizabeth Seton in Plano. i didn't go often, but i went from time to time. i went to a catholic summer camp and i found myself there. by "found myself" i mean that i found a place that would accept me as me, and i could be as stupid and funny as i wanted. thing is, it had little to do with faith, and more to do with acceptance than i knew at the time. in any case, a few years went by, and i grew comfy with the catholic church, working summers at the camp. then things came to a head. one summer, the camp wanted to bring in reconciliation (confession) to the teen weeks. at this time, i was a member of management staff and i threw a **** fit. i never would've grown comfy with the catholic religion if i had to go through reconciliation or had to see friend do the same when i was a teen in the camp (which i had been). well, the priest in attendance at that meeting sided with me, and we lost the argument. after that, the priest offered to baptize me and confirm me without RCIA, because i understood the religion more than anyone else in that room. i took him up on the offer and was baptized the next easter. i went through a period of happiness where i felt god in the church. i don't know what happened to that. it's gone, though. now, i'm a mess of faith. i don't have any idea where i am, but i find myself wondering what the f**k the entire point is. i'm frequently faced with heavily existential thoughts. i think that everyone is getting wrong and will nevel get it right, including myself. i sometimes think that nothing is important. that faith is all ********. then other times, i'll feel a spiritual peace where i know something infinite is going on but i know i'll never understand it. today is very existential. every day is different. i imagine that's the way it'll be till i kick off.
