My BIGGEST gripe about Saturday...POOR Time management

Discussion in 'On The Field' started by TEXnSEATTLE, Nov 5, 2018.

  1. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    in his post-game interview Herman said he was concerned with the amount of time on the clock when we scored and that you have to score when you can score.....WHAT!!!???? NOT if you are trying your best to use the talent of your team AND COACHING to WIN THE DAMN BALL GAME!!!

    We could have had a very long drive and taken the clock down within a minute or so and then at least any of their efforts would have had to have been rushed....

    THERE WAS ZERO DOUGHT IN MY MIND THEY WERE GOING FOR TWO and would make it after they scored....we could not stop them....

    SO, let's score quickly and MAKE SURE to give them enough time to get the whole way down the field to set up the win....just POOR TIME MANAGEMENT!!! MENSA or NO MENSA....
     
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  2. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 2,500+ Posts

    How about some fundamentals like tackling, wrapping up, doing your assignment rather than trying to get on a highlight reel, then worry about the time management
     
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  3. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    Sabre....where do you come off with EXPECTATIONS THAT HIGH???!!!! that one running play they ran 40 frick'n times always got them 50+ yards...each and every time....
     
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  4. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    You always take free TDs. Always. The only time you plan to take time AND points is when you're already in FG range.
     
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  5. mchammer

    mchammer 2,500+ Posts

    Correct ! We weren’t in FG range yet
     
  6. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 5,000+ Posts

    So you would rather keep 7 points off the board in hopes of maybe scoring later? Yep, you're head coaching material.
     
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  7. hornde68

    hornde68 25+ Posts

    Two things:
    Coach Royal once said, 'there is no such thing as an AA halfback. There is such a thing as poor tackling.' Our tackling has been JV poor.
    On the subject of time management, it is all very clear in retrospect. At the time the long touchdown pass was unfolding (I believe DuVernay caught the ball, stumbling albeit on about the 8 Yd Line) the score was tied with 2.34 remaining. With (admittedly bizarre field presence of mind) he might have stumbled down on say the 5. Run two or three running plays and make WVU use time outs. If prudent, they would have allowed a score just to get the ball back. They can't make you score if you kneel. FG wins just as well as TD with time off clock. We have actually done this (unofficially). Agree with Vol Horn 4 Life, the coach would appear out of his mind. With this year's kicker, I'd take my chances on a 20yd FG to win with worst case of OT. All very clear in retrospect.
     
  8. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    No one plans for that mid-play. I saw Sproles do it against the Cowboys once, but there's no guarantee that you don't fumble away the next snap. If the opponent is giving you a TD, you take a TD. I'm fairly convinced that WVU could have done the same thing to our defense regardless of how much time was left.

    This argument is a lot like everyone criticizing Mack and Greg Davis for the last TD against Tech in 2008. Instead of blaming a lack of extra ball control ground plays, how about the rest of the game where you let someone hang around? Or the 1st-and-goal from the 1 where we had to settle for a FG? Or, you know, not stopping them when we need to?
     
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  9. Chinstrap

    Chinstrap 250+ Posts

    It is the objective of the offense on every play to advance the football as far as they can into the opponents end of the field with the ultimate goal of crossing the opponent's goal line. One exception MIGHT be when location of the ball relative to the goal post is a consideration for the best probability of successfully kicking a field goal.
    .................. Alberto Einstein
     
  10. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    We should have run the clock and I called for it when WVU tied it up at 34. Even if we did not score, we should have run the time out. Worst case, the game ends in a tie and you go to OT.

    If your defense is playing worthless, you are not going to fix it in between one drive. Overall it needs to be fixed, but that wasnt going to happen with 2 minutes in the 4th quarter.

    We had the ball and control. We had a 1st and 10 at the west virginia 48 with 2:34 left. We were absolutely in control to run the clock out.

    Based on the way the drive was going, it was extremely likely we could pick up 20 yards, run the clock and kick a field goal.

    When you are in an offensive shootout, you dont let the other team have the ball back. You run every second off you can.

    We had an opportunity to run out the clock and either win or worst case tie for OT. Herman blew it. We did not need to take a shot to the endzone and hope our defense gets lucky/holgerson doesn't go for two.

    Before I saw the replay and saw it was not on purpose, I had honestly thought Holgy let us score to get the ball back.

    Overall the defense needs to be fixed. However, Herman needs to learn not to relinquish games and manage the clock better.

    This is not the first time. OU should not have had time left either in that game. When you are trying to run clock, do not snap the ball with 10 seconds on the play clock. Anyway, OP is right. The failure to run the clock out and best case win, worst case go to OT was bad on Herman’s part.

    It is very frustrating to see bad clock management when we had control to prevent the loss to west virginia from happening. Hell, in the Baylor game, if we snap the ball with one second, Baylor has far fewer plays on their last drive and are not taking any shots to the endzone. In the Okie State game, if we dont run clock on our last scoring drive and instead played a hurry up, we could actually have afforded to give up a first down.

    Unfortunately, Herman’s clock management is on par with Strong’s. Few are as good as Brown was when it comes to clock management, and both coaches since him have been frustrating in that area.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  11. Omniscient.one

    Omniscient.one 250+ Posts

    Herman’s nerves, and it’s not my opinion he’s nervous (see shaking hands) are costing this team. And anxiety is contagious. And impairs thinking.

    That’s how DBs that know they can’t let anyone get behind them (most having been playing since elementary school) **** the bed. These kids have enough nerves and then to look to the sidelines and see ol’ shaky hands...smh.

    Sucks as a fan to have to be patient w the head coach.
     
  12. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Hager Hair Baby

    Yes but when the clock is a factor you have to get a little more nuanced in your approach to doing it
     
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  13. wadster

    wadster 2,500+ Posts

    As far as clock management, I thought we did awesome when they substituted, it took us 10-15 seconds to get off the field. Not sure I've ever seen that happen, but it was brilliant. Honesty I didn't think the clock would have anything to do with it on their last drive and we'd have to get a stop, but it almost did due to this tactic. Just don't get beat over the top and we win. We need studs on the D side of the ball. Starts with DEs like Kindle or Rack. A DT like Brown and this would be a completely different team. Herman's job is going to depend on his ability to recruit the D line and he better figure it out.
     
  14. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    THIS!!!!! COACHING and CLOCK MANAGEMENT is a HUGE as having 22 5-- STARS out there...

    The game is not only about slugging it out, it's about the CHESS MATCH that is going on in the coach's mind....(i.e. Holgren KNEW he was going for TWO WHEN (not IF) they scored....) YOU DO NOT HAND THE BALL BACK TO A TEAM YOU CANNOT STOP....it was obvious from the beginning that the team with the ball last was going to WIN (we could NOT STOP THEM!!!)….and what do we do? HURRY, to give them the ball back to have a comfortable amount of time to score and play right in to Holgren's hand....THAT IS MY POINT!!!
     
  15. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    TOTALLY MISSING THE POINT!!! see H-town's response....
     
  16. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    Herman is conducting his demeanor as someone that is already FRIGHTENED that they are going to take everything away from him....it's in every single press conference...he's spins everything. I HATE THAT! Yes, he shakes, because what is going on in his mind is that they are going to take this away from him and that is the posture he has taken....if he is aware of it or not. I have yet to see one play that I am totally awe-struck with our ingenuity....not once. I saw him taunt the MIZZOU QB last year in the bowl game and his BIZERK behavior at OSU....NOT GOOD!! Coach Royal would have seen that they could not stop us and "ding and pinged" our way down the field taking up TIME, TIME, TIME!!! (our only salvation, folks) and then kick a field goal with 20 seconds.....then, WE WIN!!!
     
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  17. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    ALL OF YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT!!!

    THE PONT: we could NOT stop them....therefore, we do not give them the ball trying to give our porous, poor-tackling defense a chance to become something they had not been ALL DAY LONG....THEREFORE, you work your way down the field and either get a score with VERY LITTLE TIME LEFT or kick a FIELD GOAL....then, WE win, instead of playing into Holgren's plan....

    FOOTBALL is a CHESS MATCH....or, there would be NO NEED for any COACHES in the booth or on the field....
     
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  18. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    I have read this THREE TIMES....and it includes everything....please, read....
     
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  19. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    Unfortunately, Herman’s clock management is on par with Strong’s. Few are as good as Brown was when it comes to clock management, and both coaches since him have been frustrating in that area
     
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  20. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    Reply to yourself much? Let's break down Htown's post.

    We took 3 minutes off the clock out of 5:34. They did take time off in between snaps. Obviously, there's no way for Duvernay to "slow down" on his TD catch, but our running plays were only 0, 6, and 2 yards each. We had just converted a 3rd and 2. This drew man coverage for the next play with them obviously playing to stop any running attempt. Planning to "not throw deep" there discounts whether Sam had any other reads, and when he read "free TD," he took advantage of it.

    It was "fixed" twice the prior quarter. Just because the last drive for WVU was a long one doesn't mean the next one will be. You play the averages.

    You might be in control to run 40 seconds off with another 0, 6, or 2-yard run, but what if you throw an incompletion next? Or two, like we had from inside the red zone earlier? You can't possibly predict that we'll be able to run clock and play for a FG, let alone score.

    Because we had a good pass to Beck earlier in the drive? If that's the measuring stick for "likelihood of future yardage," then I'm not on board with that option over a free TD.

    How sage. I'll say this: you don't let the other team have the ball back if you're winning. We weren't. You take the points.

    Why not criticize anything else about the game? If that 3-minute drive had happened in the 2nd quarter instead of the 4th, would people be criticizing Sam or Tom or Devin or whoever else? What about having 1st-and-goal from the 1 and settling for a FG? Somehow, clock management becomes the gripe instead of leaving 4 points on the cutting room floor?

    Why not criticize the last WVU drive? Why not the LBs on the first three plays that got them to midfield but could have been sniffed out if they were in position? Why not Thompson or Foster for letting their man get behind them in man coverage? Why not McCulloch on the two-point conversion? Because it's convenient for armchair coaches to say "man if only we had taken 16 more seconds off the clock on the prior drive with no guarantees, we could have maybe played for OT." Sure we could have. But we had a free TD. You take the free TD.
     
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  21. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    thanks, for this....good points, some I still disagree with....but, the horse is dead and is not showing any life by beating him at this point....REALLY tough loss...we could have and should have won....refs SUCKED, too....
     
  22. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    As Horns11 and others have said, you always take the points. You could fumble or draw a 15 yard penalty on the next play.

    The problem to me was, with 16 seconds remaining, why aren't 4 guys standing in the end zone to stop the TD? Why are we up playing tight man-to-man defense, which hasn't worked all day?

    I see where your hand is in that picture Tex.
     
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  23. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I thought that 2,000 yards rushing in the box score was a typo. My bad...
     
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  24. wadster

    wadster 2,500+ Posts

    Are you friggin kidding me???? Brown cost us a chance at the NC by not running the clock at the end of the Tech game. We were snapping the ball with 20 seconds still on the clock. I was screaming to run more clock. TH has done a much better job at this than Brown ever did. I can't remember them now, but there were multiple times I felt clock was mismanaged under Mack.
     
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  25. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    We did not run the play clock down to 1 second or even 2 seconds. We took some time off, but nowhere near what we could have. We were snapping the ball with 5-10 second left. Those seconds count and could have been run off.

    You can throw 20 yards down field, but that was a shot at the endzone with too much time left.

    See our defense at the end of the OU, Baylor, and Okie State games. Based on the last WVU drive, I thought it extremely unlikely we would stop WVU if they got the ball back with 2 or more minutes. Guess what? I was right.

    You just discussed the law of averages. Based on the current drive, we were likely to pick up two more first downs running and throwing short passes. Based on the drive, it was likely that running would be successful. Since it was first down, we could have run.

    WVU’s defense was sucking as much as our’s. We just picked up 8 yards on two carries the previous series. Even if we go three and out we either run clock or force WVU to burn time outs. Worst case, we pin them back with little time or no time outs.

    I suppose since I correctly predicted the outcome, it was fairly sage. Amazingly, after attending some unknown number of these games, I have gotten fairly good at it. Am I right all the time? Certainly not. No one is. However, I have seen enough Big 12 shootouts to know that whoever has the ball last tends to win. It is not rocket science. See 2008 Texas Tech as a poster mentioned above (however in that case we were behind so there was a stronger argument for scoring when the opportunity arose).

    Guess what, you can criticize all those things. There are other threads criticizing those things. This thread is about this thing.

    Why do I care about this more? Because in spite of all those other things, in spite of all the other mistakes, we still had the ball inside west virginia territory and the opportunity to run out the clock. We were still in position to run the clock and try to score (a field goal) with no time left. We gave West Virginia the ball and control back, hoping our now hopeless defense would get lucky or that one of the best quarterbacks and offenses in the country would mess up. Unsurprisingly, the probable scenario of a great passing offense scoring in 2 minutes on a porous defense occurred. Our defense was so obviously finished, that Holgorsen, unlike Herman, decided to go for 2 then and take the probable win rather than risk overtime.

    Welcome to Hornfans! This entire forum and all football boards are places for your fellow armchair coaches to conveniently give their opinions. If you do not want to hear the opinions of your fellow UT armchair coaches, I recommend you stop coming here!

    Someone on a football message board calling other posters "armchair coaches"...


    :lmao::lol: :facepalm:

    I agree with the Tech game and used it as a prime example. However, for the most part he was fantastic with the clock. The numerous comebacks and 4th quarter victories are evidence of this. Herman, on the other hand, has NOT been great with the clock the past 4 games in a row. Whereas Mack Brown completed numerous comebacks against Oklahoma State alone, Tom Herman has dropped a lot of these games or given opponents shots at the end that could have been avoided. Herman is young and hopefully will improve in this area.
     
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  26. TEXnSEATTLE

    TEXnSEATTLE 1,000+ Posts

    one of the best gigs I ever got....only for three years of my life.....
     
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  27. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    "Because we had a good pass to Beck earlier in the drive? If that's the measuring stick for "likelihood of future yardage," then I'm not on board with that option over a free TD."

    By his logic, drives that start from the 20 and get to midfield would never stall out. They gained 30 yards already so it's "extremely likely they're goingo to score."

    You mean other than the entire third quarter?

    Lol I can see the board melt down as Herman goes into clock mode at the 30. Since we had shown no ability to move the linenofnscrimmage consistently when WV was selling out against the run, we gain 2 yards in three plays and miss a long FG and everyone screams at Herman. He's scared because he plays conservative. He's scared because he throws deep. Never heard anyone accuse a coach of coaching scared because he went for a score and trusted his defense to make a stop.

    Honestly these arguements are getting more and more ridiculous. I was on the fence on this, but you're singlehandedly pushing me to the other opinion.
     
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  28. gahornphan

    gahornphan 500+ Posts

    The defense cannot make stops when it needs to. We would be undefeated if they could. Don't know if its a talent deficit or mental lapses or fatigue or coaching or what. The 2005 Horns defense struggled all day against USC but they knew they had to make ONE stop to give the offense a chance to win the game - and they did.
     
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  29. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    @ProdigalHorn and @Horns11 are taking the position that it was reasonable to think our defense could make a stop. They are surprisingly supported by @Statalyzer. Let us review this game and see if it was more reasonable to think our defense would make a stop or that if we gave the ball back with plenty of time left, West Virginia would likely score. Let us also review whether it was likely Texas would be able to drive, run clock and score, or whether we needed to score at the first opportunity.

    UT-WVU Drive Chart:
    WVU - Field Goal
    UT - Punt
    WVU - Punt
    UT - Touchdown
    WVU - Touchdown
    UT - Touchdown
    WVU - Touchdown
    UT - Touchdown
    WVU - Touchdown
    UT - Touchdown
    WVU - Field Goal
    UT - End of Half (drive started with 9 seconds left)
    UT - Turnover on Downs on WVU 5 yard line
    WVU - Punt
    UT - Field Goal
    WVU - Turnover on Downs on the UT 20 yard line
    UT - Field Goal
    WVU - Touchdown
    UT - Touchdown
    WVU - Touchdown
    UT - End of Game (drive started with 16 seconds)

    Throwing out the 2 last drives before the end of the halves, UT scored on 7 of its 9 drives. UT got within field goal range on 8 of its 9 drives. If UT is getting within field goal range 88% of the time is has the ball, IT IS VERY LIKLEY UT WILL BE ABLE TO SUSTAIN A DRIVE TO RUN THE CLOCK AND GET IN FIELD GOAL RANGE.

    West Virginia scored on 7 of its 10 drives and got within field goal range on 8 of its 10 drives. West Virginia has one of the best QBs in the country and great receives. UT suffered injuries to the defensive line and the secondary. We got no pressure whatsoever on their QB on their second to last drive. Yes, it was very likely they could go down field and score on us in the last two minutes. Holgorsen knew our defense was done and that is why he always planned to go for two. Hell, they converted the two point conversion twice.


    West Virginia had 578 yards and 28 first downs. Texas had 520 yards and 28 first downs. There was no defense in this game, much less when both teams were worn down in the 4th.

    I did not make some crazy prediction. Running the clock and playing the field goal was the obvious call supported by the facts at the time. My prediction that if we left too much time, West Virginia would score was the likely scenario and I was proven right.

    Yes, in general football, you take the points. However, the exception is when your defense is unlikely to make a stop. If you cannot rely on the defense and you have an opportunity to run out the clock, you run out the clock. We did not do that and it was a poor decision on Herman's part. Anyone that thinks it was a good call apparently was not sure what game they were watching as they did not seem to realize it was a full on, no defense Big 12 shootout.

    @TEXnSEATTLE is right.
     
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  30. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    BabHorn has it right. At what point are we going to start paying attention to/giving a **** about the game against Tceh?
     

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