New York State's New Abortion Law

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Clean, Jan 23, 2019.

  1. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    No ...

    supremely selfish
    a travesty

    for the vast majority of the abortions committed in this country, that array applies on its own ... the outlawed death penalty is a separate issue.
  2. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    The irony of the death penalty argument versus abortion is that we might execute an innocent person...
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    just wanna keep the discussion alive. Finally finished training. I'm whipped.

    but I think even PP had data on the excuses/reason given to 'have an abortion' for a while, but as this effort to mitigate 'em from not only a greater emphasis on contraceptive but also post pregnancy counseling about the baby ... literally SEEING the baby, abortions have decreased somewhat ... but the reasons behind those which are still performed remain an overwhelmingly selfish. IE absolutely no increased risk to the woman's becoming deceased.

    ... and then that data point has not served their purpose at all.
  4. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    Indeed ... might execute an innocent in the sentencing with capital punishment ...

    WILL execute an innocent with an abortion.

    great point. Further establishing, the argument FOR abortion isn't based in science, and it's not based in any rational thought at all ... it's an emotional issue based almost exclusively upon the exaltation of ... SELF.
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  5. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    Yes... and believe me, I'm highly sympathetic to the falsely accused. I think it is a very compelling argument to ban the death penalty and I'm quite sure the state has executed the wrong person before not to mention the lynchings of black people without a trial.

    I've said it before; I'm not so sure as a politician that I'd vote to ban abortion completely and put violators in prison for life. I'm not necessarily in the camp of life at conception is the same as life at birth and beyond. I'm open to reasonable debates and idealistic notions that doctors truly are confronted with the death of the mother or the child. But the celebration and arrogant sanctimony about a woman's body is just another thing that makes me want to vomit. If you are in that camp then at least have the F'n decency to vote your "conscience" in a sober, solemn manner depicting the tragedy at hand; not only for the child but for the situation you have found yourself confronting; drunk night out or an accident with the man you love.

    One thing I've never heard discussed and wonder about; what if a couple (lesbian or hetero) were having a baby carried by another woman who decided to abort it. What would they think?
    • Like Like x 1
  6. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    I don't know if this is codified quite this way, but I'm fairly certain the standard for the death penalty is beyond a shadow of a doubt ... ie 100% certain ... not simply beyond reasonable doubt.

    there are crimes for which capital punishment is just. it's the job of police and the prosecution to prove those crimes were committed by the defendant(s) but I wouldn't put rapists in jail for life just on the possibility the evidence wasn't what was said to be ...

    then there's the accountability of the police and prosecutor.

    I receive and understand. I recognize life DOES begin at conception. and while there's certainly a marked change from unborn to born ... the sanctity of the innocent life doesn't change.

    virtual abortion on demand has contributed to lack of self discipline in the sexual activity of too many, which has brought all sorts of physical ailment, psychological disturbance ... and societal norms of behavior.

    We've simply accepted ... teenagers will have sexual intercourse .. rather than promote the expectation and the standard of sex being an incredibly wonderful gift for an exclusively married couple. that's the design whether we like it or not.


    i think there have been these cases. I'm sure some of the lawyers here can refine this response with actual cases, but I'm pretty certain this has been brought to the courts and usually (if not always) the surrogate is required to finish the job she agreed to do ... and occasionally those women have been placed under suicide watches ... or to prevent her attempts to self-abort.

    not a pretty deal, to be sure.
  7. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    as am I. I think most of us have an experience/two/three which are significant (not "he stole my bubble gum") and can not only seek integrity for the system's standing, but the emotional betrayal of the wrongly accused.
  8. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    There are constitutional limitations on the death penalty but not on the level of proof. It's still a guilt beyond a reasonable doubt standard like in any other criminal case.

    I'm not familiar with any such case. My guess is that a court would not order a woman not to have an abortion or allow her to be charged with a crime for doing so because of Roe. However, I'm sure the couple and the surrogate would have a written agreement. Assuming that they did, the couple couple sue the woman for breach of the surrogacy agreement and recover money damages.
    • Like Like x 1
  9. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    yeah, perhaps court case was in error on my part. Perhaps "court order" would have been a more precise term? I have a former youth minister who "grew up" to be a social worker/certified counselor. He's been in that position for the better part of 30 years.

    He's had clients? ... who were surrogates and these women (just a couple, but he's just one SW, too) needed his help after the fact. So my info is "anecdotal," but I know he's telling me the truth.
  10. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    I don't doubt that he's telling the truth. Just because I'm not aware of a case doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Issues and disputes come up all the time that don't end up in court or if they do don't end up being high profile enough for me to become aware of it.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    My point in posing this scenario is to test feminists when they are in the position of becoming emotionally attached to their surrogated (is that a word?) child only to see it aborted. This is not a contractual argument but instead a way of determining if they see their surrogate baby as a mass of tissue or a real live human being.

    This is similar to the arguments we see from the Left about people not having full blown funerals for a miscarriage.

    My argument against that is that we "fall in love" with our children. Our emotions are not wholly developed in the first trimester as they become when we fully bond with our child months after their birth.
  13. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    For probably 90 percent of pro-choicers, the determining factor is whether the woman wants the child. If she doesn't, it's "mass of tissue." If she wants it, then it's a human. They would never admit the inconsistency, but they'd apply it in practice.

    The New York law is at least consistent in adopting the most radical view that the fetus is essentially never a life. Barbaric and sick but consistent.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    AH! thanks I'm trackin ya now. You're pretty sly, bystander! :)
    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 5,000+ Posts

    Why do prosecutors go for double homicide if the murdered victim is pregnant? For consistency sake, if abortion is not murder then this situation should never be double homicide.
    • Like Like x 1
  16. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I try to test a zealots opinions in different scenarios to see if there is a connection that makes sense or if it's more hypocritical opportunism.

    For instance, we know that the far left atheists hate white Christians who believe in a magic man in the sky. They ridicule them for being uneducated, homophobic and misogynistic.

    So why then the love affair with Muslim refugees and macho male poor uneducated male immigrants from Latin America? This is not me being a racist; this is me trying to understand what people really stand for. Values or political power?
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  17. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Because some state laws (such as Texas) allow such a prosecution and allow for the inconsistency. The Supreme Court has never struck down such statutes. If we see a liberal majority on the Court, it likely would.
  18. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    It's pretty simple. They are unified by a common enemy. They hate Christians more than they like atheism.

    Same reason why some gays will align with Muslims who would have their heads severed if they had power. Ditto for feminists. They'll align with people who would make them wear burqas, not let them drive, and would stone them for having sex outside of marriage. They hate conservative Christians more than they like feminism.

    If you could get these folks to be honest with you and force them to reconcile their obvious inconsistency, they would likely tell you that Muslims would never gain that level of power, and if they did, they'd be able to "civilize" them. That's what the Left in Europe largely believes.
    • Like Like x 2
  19. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    New York doesn't have a fetal homicide law at all.
  20. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    • Like Like x 1
  21. Phil Elliott

    Phil Elliott 2,500+ Posts

    "Politics make strange bedfellows."
    • Agree Agree x 3
  22. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

  23. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Planned Parenthood gave millions in donations to VA Gov Northam^
    Planned Parenthood was founded by Margaret Sanger who famously said: "We don’t want the word to get out that we want to exterminate the Negro population…"

  24. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Idiots. It was Aktion T4. It was as well documented as the Holocaust. Maybe even moreso.
  25. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Margaret Sanger made David Duke look like Nelson Mandela.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  26. Horn6721

    Horn6721 Half of seeming clever is keeping your mouth shut.

    These words.
    "they would likely tell you that Muslims would never gain that level of power, and if they did, they'd be able to "civilize" them. That's what the Left in Europe largely believes."
    are more disturbing than anything I have read in a long time.
    And apply here in USA too.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I'd qualify this a little. Ultimately this gets back to one point in their minds: one group will have an impact on me, and another one won't. They're able to ignore the issues of muslim hangings and beheadings because that's happening to OTHER gay people. Not them. And they're convinced it will NEVER happen to them in this country, so they don't see that culture as a threat to THEM.

    All of this solidarity and unity is garbage. At the end of the day it's "what makes me feel good, what makes me feel safe, what makes me feel like I'm on the right side of history," or whatever. There doesn't have to be a logic to it or even any sort of thought. If it feels good so voice support for some group halfway across the world, great, I'll do it - who cares who they really are, how they live, or what they'd do to me if I were over there? This is about making me feel good in the here and now. Christians are over here "getting in my business and telling me what I can and can't do (which is weird btw because from what I can tell they're all doing what they want and no one seems to be stopping them) and so they're the real threat to me and my lifestyle."

    Whole lot of "me's" and I's" in that worldview.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Hillary in 2009 --

    "Now, I have to tell you that it was a great privilege when I was told that I would receive this award. I admire Margaret Sanger enormously, her courage, her tenacity, her vision ... And when I think about what she did all those years ago in Brooklyn, taking on archetypes, taking on attitudes and accusations flowing from all directions, I am really in awe of her."

    Sec. Clinton Stands By Her Praise of Eugenicist Margaret Sanger
  29. ShAArk92

    ShAArk92 1,000+ Posts

    you are probably very correct here. PH. Thanks.

    We all have a tendency to think this way so I don't consider it an exclusive "flame" per se ... but the result of thinking this way WRT islam is far more disastrous than a 21 year old, for example, failing to consider the danger to him IS real when he makes a foolish decision. (insert your fav here) ... if there's any consideration at all, it's "won't happen to me."

    great point.
  30. Monahorns

    Monahorns 2,500+ Posts

    Hillary in 2009 --

    "Now, I have to tell you that it was a great privilege when I was told that I would receive this award. I admire Margaret Sanger enormously, her courage, her tenacity, her vision ... And when I think about what she did all those years ago in Brooklyn, taking on archetypes, taking on attitudes and accusations flowing from all directions, I am really in awe of her."

    What archetypes was Sanger taking on? The equality of all peoples and races?

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