No improvement on 3rd down

Discussion in 'On The Field' started by Nic, Sep 4, 2011.

  1. borna_horn

    borna_horn 1,000+ Posts

    Dude, I saw VY with my own eyes step in against eventual Big 12 Champion Kansas State and freaking will us to victory. He took the starting job away from Chance Mock, who was playing better at that point than GG is now.

    There is NO COMPARISON. Stop insulting our intelligence with your nonsense.
     
  2. Joe2005

    Joe2005 500+ Posts


     
  3. borna_horn

    borna_horn 1,000+ Posts

    The people who thought VY was a terrible passer in 2003 are idiots.
     
  4. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    Believe it or not I thought about starting a topic about Gideon. Last year he got in a bad habit of missing open field tackles. His worst game to date was against Aggie last year. He missed open field after open field tackles against them. Then on the second play and long vs Rice Sat night he wiffed again that would have been a tackle for a loss and they either got a first down or they made it 3rd and short. Either way his open field tackling skills are unacceptable and if I were the coaches, he would know his job is on the line.

    But you act as if one player not doing his job that it's not right to call out someone else. It's time they produce on the field or get out of our way. You guys defending GG's play with excuses are accepting not just average play, but below average play. He has never shown flashes of anything more than a weak link in our chain. Also he has zero leadership skills.

    Did anybody else see how the players responded when we went with the wildcat offense? The players on the sideline got excited, the fans got excited and the the players on the field executed. It reminded me for the first time the atmosphere we had back in 2009. Not one time last year was there excitement. Then GG goes back in and you can feel the air being let out of the atmosphere. When GG can learn to hit his Wr's so they can continue to run after the catch is when you we see short plays go long. Instead he doesn't throw catchable balls. The nose of the football is down, usually behind the Wr, low to the ground so the Wr has to leave their feet to catch it, locks into the Wr he's passing to, and has no touch on his passes. If GG is going to continue to throw rockets they have to be somewhere close to the body. Passes that are rockets with no touch can't be going away from the wr body or there are going to be lots of incompletitions even if they get their hands on it.

    It would be one thing if he just had one problem with locking in. But he pretty much has problems in all areas of being a QB. He has tremendous arm strength, but that about as far as it goes as a passer. If you want to admit it or not, with what we seen on the field last Sat, we are capable of losing everyone of our remaining game. Probably not but with that performance just like last year we will lose many many game. Something needs to change and it's not the fans that want the best players on the field that can produce on game day. Please don't ask who they are because we can't answer that as long as the coaches are going to stick with the same players no matter what the results are. I don't care what they do in practice. It's Saturdays that count.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. BevoJoe

    BevoJoe 10,000+ Posts

    I thought GG had improved over last year, but this was the first game. Next week may be a different story with a stronger team coming in. We were 50% on 3rd downs vs Rice and 100% on 4th down conversations, so that was much better.

    While the team as a whole looked much better on the field and in their conditioning there are still many things to work on and there isn't much time. BYU comes to town next week and we go out to UCLA after that so the bugs have to be worked out quickly.
     
  6. geezerhorn

    geezerhorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  7. jlslayt

    jlslayt 100+ Posts


     
  8. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    BevoJoe, Remember the game was against Rice.

    GG vs Rice

    2010
    14 comp 23 att 172 yards 60.9 comp% 47 long 0 TD 0 INT

    2011
    13 comp 23 att 239 yards 56.5 comp% 56 long 1 TD 0 INT
     
  9. obsessedhorn

    obsessedhorn 100+ Posts

    Wow, a lot of different opinions here but please stop with the VY comparison, I mean seriously.

    I do think Nic made a fair observation about 3rd down conversions. Let's be honest, the offense struggled mightily against Rice in the 1st half. I was really disappointed that Ash did not get a real chance at the start of the 3rd quarter. After all, Mack specifically said in his presser that GG would be the starter as long as the team moved the ball and scored...and that really didn't happen very effectively in the 1st half. Playing against Rice was the perfect opportunity to see what someone else can do. If not then, when?
     
  10. omnipresent

    omnipresent 1,000+ Posts

    For those of you laughingly making a comparison to Vince & GG, you deserve all sorts of bad joojoo.The Link
     
  11. Joe2005

    Joe2005 500+ Posts


     
  12. Rex Kramer

    Rex Kramer 1,000+ Posts

    I'd like to see TOP for Texas and Rice in the 1st half. Sure GG didn't look crisp, but the problem that half was our front 7 unable to stop Rice chipping away at us and draining the clock. When you are on the short end of a substantial talent discrepancy, you play to your strengths, run high percentage plays, and try to shorten the game. Rice did that perfectly for over a half Saturday. I think that is being overlooked.

    I am not convinced GG is not the guy. The sample size is way too small. And people citing stats from last year are wasting their breath. They are completely irrelevant as GG was never in a position to succeed. He gets a "B" from me for his performance. I saw improvement from him throughout the game. While I too saw him miss a couple seemingly open receivers, I also saw him complete some throws he couldn't last year. I left the game encouraged, which I didn't really after any game last year.
     
  13. georgecostanza

    georgecostanza NBHorn7’s Protégé

    Let's breakdown each 3rd down where Gilbert controlled the ball:

    1st quarter

    After 2 failed rushing attempts, it is 3rd and 8. Gilbert throws incomplete to Shipley.
    Later on, it is 3rd and 5, and Gilbert throws incomplete to Davis.
    Next series, Gilbert throws 3 straight incomplete passes. 2 to Davis, 1 to White. I think one of those was an incomplete streak to Davis.

    Through the 1st quarter, Gilbert is 0-3 on 3rd down, while 0-3 passing. Two of those 3rd downs were of the "long" variety.

    2nd quarter

    On a 3rd and 2, Gilbert drops back to pass, but instead runs for a 24 yard gain.
    Later on the same drive, Gilbert is incomplete to Dom Jones to fail on 3rd and goal from the 6. (Was this a drop by the TE?)
    Next drive, Gilbert throws a complete pass to CJ. The pass only goes for 4 yards on a 3rd and 5. The half ended after this play.

    Through the 2nd quarter: Gilbert is 1 for 6 on 3rd down, while 1 for 5 passing.

    3rd quarter

    3rd and 7, Gilbert completes a toss to Shipley for an 18 yard gain. (Wait, I thought someone said Gilbert was 0-6 passing on 3rd down. At this point, he is 2-6. Get your facts straight you jackwagon.)
    3rd and 8, GG gets sacked for the second play in a row.
    3rd and 1, GG incomplete to Irby. (We all agree Irby dropped that.)

    Through 3: GG is 2 for 9 on 3rd down, and 2 for 7 passing.

    4th quarter

    3rd and 1, GG runs for the single yard.

    That's the end of GG 3rd downs for the game. Final tally for him is 3 for 10 on 3rd down with 2 for 7 passing. I would consider 4 of those downs "long" downs. You could make a case for a 5th long down since 3rd and goal from anywhere outside the 5 is difficult to make.

    Also, as a side note, on most of the short downs, Harsin called runs. It is what you would expect any OC to do, but it is still worth keeping in mind that GG didn't have 3rd and 3 every time.

    I will admit, those stats are crappy. However, had Irby caught his pass, 4 for 10 is not too bad for his first game in a new offense.

    I would also like to point out that Case was 0-1 passing on 3rd down.

    And GG did NOT go 0-6 passing on 3rd down. I want to make that clear. I hate it when people throw out stats without even checking their validity.
     
  14. georgecostanza

    georgecostanza NBHorn7’s Protégé

    Does no one care to respond now that I've pointed out some truths?
     
  15. geezerhorn

    geezerhorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  16. OrangeChipper

    OrangeChipper 1,000+ Posts

    You cannot start a game passing 0-5 on third down. Rice had a 16-14 Time of possession advantage on us in the first half (roughly) Thank goodness we weren't playing an offense with a pulse.

    We have got to be able to give the defense some rest occasionally.

    Check out this stat. We had 6 first half drives and 5 of them were 5 plays or less. WOW! That's craptastic.
     
  17. omnipresent

    omnipresent 1,000+ Posts


     
  18. georgecostanza

    georgecostanza NBHorn7’s Protégé

    I've always been a believer that on third and short, you should run the ball the majority of the time. You should be able to line up and shove the ball down the throat of the defense for the 2 to 3 yards necessary for the first down. It appears to me that Harsin follows this philosophy. Most of our 3rd and shorts were run plays, which we were successful executing. IMO, the offense should be able to convert at least 60% of the third downs from 3 yards or fewer whether it is a run or a pass play.

    If you are in a situation where you have 5 or more yards to gain, running the ball is not as viable of an option. You are going to have to throw the football. How many defenses do you know that aren't going to sit on the pass in a third and long situation? This makes it harder on the offense because the defense has a higher chance to correctly guess and defend whatever play the OC decides to call. If the offense can convert 33% of the plays on 3rd and 6 or further, I am more than content. You really shouldn't put yourself in a 3rd and long situation very often. If you are, then someone (whether it be the OC or the team) isn't doing their job correctly.

    Obviously, those percentages will be different according to each individual fan's opinions. Those are mine, and I don't care if you completely disagree with them.

    Gilbert was directly involved in 5 3rd downs with to go distances of 6 or longer. The offense successfully converted on just 1 of the 5 3rd downs. Obviously, that doesn't meet my own standard, and I chalk that up as a failure.

    On 3rd downs with to go yards of 3 or less, the offense converted 2 of 3 3rd downs with GG being a main cog in the play. That, by my definition, is a success. Irby dropped the pass on a 3rd and 1, but I still marked that against GG for this purpose.

    I did leave two of the GG related 3rd downs in a gray area. The results were 0-2 on those downs. A failure no matter which group you feel like lumping them in with. Both were 3rd and 5's.

    All I said was that GG was "not too bad" on 3rd downs. I didn't say he was the king of 3rd down conversions. Also, one thing I really want to stress is that this is a new offense for the entire team. I don't care if GG has been on campus for 3 springs. This is still a new offense, and it takes time for everyone to get used to and comfortable with. Feel free to disagree.




     
  19. georgecostanza

    georgecostanza NBHorn7’s Protégé


     
  20. georgecostanza

    georgecostanza NBHorn7’s Protégé


     
  21. Nic

    Nic 25+ Posts

    GC, good catch. I missed the Shipley catch when i was scanning the play by play. I didn't count the Cody Johnson pass because I was looking at passes that successfully got a first down.... So, with that logic he was 1 of 7 (converfirst third downs). Thanks for the catch and sorry to be spewing bad facts.

    Anyway, it doesn't seem like we disagree on the basic premise: He was pretty bad on 3rd down saturday.... I'm not sure how you feel about how he played on 3rd down last year. I started to look at the play by plays and see if he hit your benchmarks, but I didn't have the endurance to get past 1 game. My eyes told me last year that we rarely converted 3rd downs. You might be able to prove me wrong with the stats and if you're a better man than me, I'd love to see them.

    I think we may disagree on the conclusion. Mine was that Gilbert's performance was discouraging because his trend of playing poorly on 3rd down continued. You seem to take the more optimistic approach and say it's a new offense, the line didn't block well, etc. Give the kid a chance and focus on the positives from Saturday. I won't piss on that. I like optimism.

    I just thought his 3rd down performance deserved to be discussed a bit. Mission accomplished....... What's a jack wagon anyway?
     
  22. X Misn Tx

    X Misn Tx 2,500+ Posts

    i thought he played better saturday than last season.

    i still think he lifts his shoulder too much and the ball hits the receiver hands funny a lot (not a very catchable ball).

    the three plays where he rolled outside the tackle (it looked that way on my laptop) where he was sacked twice and did the diving/twisting option throw back just seemed like bad decision making. if you get to roll out, just throw it away instead of a sack. if you can't throw it, take a sack before doing a diving/twisting option.

    if he 1) had better touch, 2) saw more of his options, and 3) "just seemed to make the right choice," then he'd have a lot less criticism.

    as it his, i'm sure he is a committed, hard working player who has represented us well in all of the other areas as a college athlete. i have no negative emotions for him. it is what it is. if it's the best we have, i'll deal with it.
     
  23. borna_horn

    borna_horn 1,000+ Posts

    Even though Irby dropped the one ball, there was no reason for GG to throw a bullet in that situation. It made no sense and is part of why I think he lacks football IQ.
     
  24. Rex Kramer

    Rex Kramer 1,000+ Posts

    Chipper, those are some damning stats and I'm not an irrational GG apologist. I did not he didn't look sharp and was very concerned through 30 minutes of play. But he did make some very nice throws in the 2nd half and performed well. So he had a nice turnaround. I am willing to chalk up the first half effort up to jitters if he continues to improve.

    It is concerning to me we let Rice dictate the pace of play early. While we surely have to help the D out, they sucked early. There is no getting around that.
     
  25. 1leggedduck

    1leggedduck 1,000+ Posts

    I remember when the ***** at this point would be about the failure of the coaches to use freshman running backs who were clearly better than the Srs and Jrs who knew their pass blocking assignments. Harsin seems to want the best RBs on the field. Why would he want anything but the best option available at QB? If it was Mack behind the upper classmen at RB, and the pass blocking comments were his, as I recall, then apparently Harsin is making these calls. I am willing to accept that, for whatever reason, GG is the best option at this time. I don't think he is the answer long term, but for now, he must be the best option or he wouldn't be starting. Malcolm Brown's touches suggest that if there was, in Harsin and Applewhite's opinions, a better alternative, he would be starting.

    My guess is that we will see more and more of plan B in packages and such, until he has enough full speed experience to overtake GG, if he can. I like where this offense is going, and if the run game continues to improve, whoever plays QB will have a much easier time than GG had last year. Everybody needs to relax a little and trust the vastly improved decision making, and what could be a great downhill rushing game.
     
  26. NickDanger

    NickDanger 2,500+ Posts

    I am NO FAN of Gilbert and I quit reading the posts after about 7 of them, but I still feel qualified to say that it is a lot easier to SEE open receivers from the upper deck or TV than from the field. Gilbert is not going to take UT to an MNC. Part of that is his fault. He just isn't all that good. Part of that is Mack Brown's refusal to recognize that Greg Davis is a moron and to kick some fat *** in the Oline recruiting and training areas.

    We can still enjoy this and every football season. Even if it is recognizing that some people enjoy griping. My father never experiences so much joy as having a really good reason to launch a tirade. So often he has really lousy reasons. It's still infinitely better than watching soccer or cycling or tennis or golf or fishing or car driving or pro football.

    Didn't even listen to the game on radio. It's the preseason.
     
  27. georgecostanza

    georgecostanza NBHorn7’s Protégé

    Nic, thanks for not overreacting to my post. It may have come off as a little pissy. I need to stop posting things as soon as I get home from work, especially on a holiday. A grocery store is not the best place to be on a holiday.

    I'll try and go through last season like you requested. It will take a while, but I should be able to do it soon. I have classes today, so I may not be able to get it done tonight. I might have to wait til I'm home from work tomorrow.

    Also, I don't really know what a jackwagon is. It's kinda like calling someone a dipsh**. What is a dipsh**? Is it someone that was dipped in a giant vat of ****? A swimming pool full of **** that you go skinny dipping in? [​IMG]
     
  28. Hooky Hornstein

    Hooky Hornstein 100+ Posts


     
  29. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    The one first down pass to Shipley could have been a 60 yard TD if he hit him in stride. Shipley beat the defender to the inside and it would have been a foot race between him and the safety. But GG threw it low and behind making Shipley go to the ground to get it.

    The is amazing to me that GC can try to defend GG's production in that game. Even the TD screen to fuzzy was a rocket to his hip. Luckly he got his hands down and snagged it before turning up field making some moves for the TD. The pass to Irby should have been caught. But GG throwing high at close range and hard didn't do him any favors. I'd have some hope if he needed to improve on a couple of things. But he has problems in all areas outside of running. Normally a strong arm is a plus, but when your not on target with a rocket arm it's very hard to catch the ball going away from the body. Many here chalks that up as a drop, but I will go as far as saying the catches the WR's did make made his passing stats better than they should be. The catch Shipley made going to the ground on that one first down play was a circus catch. Again, I believe Shipley catching that ball in stride could or may have been a TD.

    Again, you guys trying to defend GG as the starting QB are defending his poor play vs "RICE". His first game as a starter vs Rice last year were similar to last saturdays numbers. How in the hell can this not be a red flag. And why are you so against giving two other QB's a chance to compete in true live game on a Saturday? SMU benched there starting QB after the second possession when he threw 2 INTs and they actually made a game of it despite spotting the aggies a 14 point lead with may 7 or 8 minutes gone in the "1st quarter".

    GC, did you get to see the game?
     
  30. georgecostanza

    georgecostanza NBHorn7’s Protégé


     

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