Post-Trump GOP

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by BrntOrngStmpeDe, Jan 25, 2021.

  1. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    The Administration is giving us plenty of material to work with. However, if our primary battles are Trump loyalty contests rather than about issues and general election viability, it will greatly diminish the significance of the **** show.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  2. Chop

    Chop 5,000+ Posts

    There will be some real political theatre in the GOP primaries when Trump endorses one candidate, and the anti-Trump factions rally around the other candidate.

    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    Exactly. We need to re-establish the norms of political standards because we can do so much better than Trump.

    You really hit it on the head when you mention loyalty. Loyalty can drag you into the gutter; defend a murderer; forgive a serial adulterer... on and on... Character matters. Who said that? Republicans.

    So where is it? Somebody needs to redefine the standards and not just as right-wing standards, but instead standards of reasonable discourse and interpretations of our laws not as a zealous lawyer would but instead as a thoughtful statesman who cares about the whole of the union

    Neither party must rule absolutely. That would be a disaster. We can't demonize others with the intent of destroying the checks and balances of whole thought instead of the destruction wielded by partisan bias. To be afraid of an idea is to be a totalitarian.

    That's not who we are.
    • Agree Agree x 3
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  4. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    It will guarantee Democrat victories if Trump splits the party. The two-party system is a complete failure because it breeds extremism. I'm not sure I know exactly why but it does. They gain political power because they are not marginalized as they should be. Instead their vote is as vital as the greatest calm, wise, rational human being. Their emotional obsession's (both sides) are given equal weight in public discourse. Rabid ignorance and unhinged feelings are now seen as mentally healthy or normal. And too many "educated" people are ignoring this in the name of their own ideological feelings.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. horninchicago

    horninchicago 10,000+ Posts

    So many people, for years, if not decades, have complained about "politics as usual". Trump bucked all of that. Now, it seems, people want to go back to the same politics as usual.

    Why not just look at the results? I've said it before, but basing your vote on tweets and a perception falsely driven by the media against any Republican is stupid.

    Good luck, post-Trump GOP going back to the same old RINOs doing whatever it takes to try to appease the media.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I don't want to go back to "as usual." Trump highlighted many things that needed illumination. But somehow we can uphold our values and laws without all the rancor.

    I've said this before; his rhetoric concerning immigration was too close to reckless and easily demagogued. All he had to say is this:

    "As President, I am sworn to uphold the law. This includes immigration. I do not pass judgment on who wishes to enter our country. I am here to manage the process AS PROVIDED TO ME BY CONGRESS. There are many heart-breaking stories concerning the tragedy of human migration as an act of desperation. I especially feel the plight of the DACA immigrants.

    But I am not Congress. I am not a Dictator. We are not at war.

    Please work with you representatives in order to make the changes you feel represent the values of our country as a whole. I will not pass laws as President with executive orders. I will not declare the conditions in other viable countries as an emergency in ours in order to stretch the intent of amnesty. We must draw a line somewhere. Please tell me where that line is:

    50 million immigrants?
    40 million immigrants?
    30 million immigrants?
    Stop me when you reach the line
    20 million immigrants?
    10 million immigrants?

    I cannot entertain politicians who have no line. It is too easy to be an anarchist in an attempt to elevate their humanitarian standing to that of Dr. King or Gandhi. It's a political game and I have the internal Constitution to rise above all of that.

    If you can see what I am saying, SOMEBODY has to say, "This is where we draw the line." The laws are clear. You must be here under the guidelines as provided by Congress. I will not be steered away from upholding the Constitution.

    Upholding our immigration laws requires no explanation. It requires no demonization of those who try to enter unlawfully. It is instead a set of laws that have been agreed upon by our entrenched Congress and politicians from both sides of the aisle. I have their quotes handy if you wish to refresh your memory.

    That is my platform."
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. horninchicago

    horninchicago 10,000+ Posts

    I recall him saying we need reform and merit based immigration. I saw how it was all characterized as racist and xenophobic, but I think that was just BS put forth by the media and swallowed up by people because they believe that stuff.

    He was critical of Dems and RINos in his tweets. So what? They deserve it.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I think there is no doubt that the Left/Media twist words because they do not operate in good faith. That's why they make me sick. I have so many Liberal sentiments on the inside but I won't support lying zealots. And that's what they are. I'm convinced of it.

    Trump had a wild personality. It takes much emotional control to not let the Left get to you and remain calm. I'm not sure I could do it. But I do know what not to say and the statements made this week by Texas Republicans were a travesty. I can't believe how stupid they are. They are so insular in their thinking. So out of touch.

    Trump needed to understand that he couldn't be sloppy or reckless. It's easy for me to say. But his combative nature was more along the lines of FU instead of calm discourse that ignored the outrage of Liberalism.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. horninchicago

    horninchicago 10,000+ Posts

    I agree with 99% of your comments. I just don't see how Trump could have acted or behaved, whatever you want to call it, any differently and had it reported in a positive light by the media. People who watch and live by CNN/MSNBC, and even Fox News in 2020, will just believe whatever they are told.
  10. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I'm good with 99%!

    I'm speaking to a standard. I have no doubt they would parse Dylan, Jefferson or any great thinker and speaker of eloquence. No matter how perfect in the delivery, how civil, how sensitive. They hate Conservatives and you can't negotiate with them. So it is so much easier to attack them as I admittedly do on this forum. It is just so obvious how they are. The hypocrisy is as thick as it ever has been in the modern era. I don't know if a well-spoken policy statement would be acknowledged by The New York Times. We know that the Rachel Maddow's would never accept it because their standards are so uncompromising, so full of zero tolerance and so full of emotional baggage that they can justify a lie in the name of saving their own self-image.
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Vino Bevo

    Vino Bevo Wine - how classy people get drunk

    I wrote in another thread all politicians suck, and it's honestly how I feel the majority of the time. I emphatically agree with your last three posts bystander, and would LOVE to eat my words if they (or just one) were to actually think and act like you describe. In my mind that's what I mean when I think "politics as usual" - we can disagree but maintain our sincere desire to get along and learn from each other through healthy debate and maybe at the end of the day we both learn and grow from it. I also know it's been an extremely long time since that mentality existed in our society, let alone government, and as others have said I think the media has driven most of that, followed closely by social media.

    Edit to add "people that blindly let themselves and their decisions be led by media and social media" to the list of top three drivers, again IMHO.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    That ship sailed s/p 1/6/2021.
  13. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    It sailed a long time ago.

    What does s/p mean?
  14. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    I'm assuming @bystander wants to get back to that level of ethics/moral roots. Like you, my feeling is they they veered further away and will continue to be unmoored to anything but the cult of personality as long as they embrace Trump.
  15. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    The arguments about why Texas is suffering as it is, is a case in point.

    The extreme Left wants to eliminate fossil fuels 100%. I know this for a fact because I work for a natural gas utility and we hear it from the activists during rates negotiations with the city. We have a conservation program where we give discounts to those who buy natural gas appliances. The activists want the program eliminated because it creates incentives to buy fossil fuels. They are ugly, mean and vile to our representatives. THIS IS A FACT.

    Now... if the grid were 100% renewable (I've heard we only rely on wind 10% or so during the winter and much more in the summer) what would have happened? They ignore this question. They are only making sure we all know the failures of fossil fuels. Well, the failure is one of cost-value decision making. We hear this is a once very ten years or more situation. So do you spend money to mitigate WORST CASE SCENARIOS? Other than airlines and maybe nuclear plants, most people don't do that. In the case of Texas gas providers, who is going to pay them to winterize? The people. That discussion is going to take place again.

    Now... we hear that wind turbines don't freeze in extreme cold conditions. But that's because extreme cold that last a long time time (months) creates the value to invest in heaters and other winterization ON EACH TURBINE. Who is paying for this? In Texas, CLEARLY the decision was made to not winterize because we're not Swedon or Alberta. So now we have to retrofit or should we instead winterize the natural gas providers?

    This is what a rational discussion should look like.

    But the extreme Left (AOC IS BECOMING MORE AND MORE MAINSTREAM) want to destroy fossil fuels and as a card carrying cynic I'm telling you now, THEY WON'T CARE when it is proven that renewables are much less reliable as a 100% solution than what we currently have in the diversified portfolio of energy generation. And diversification is not what they want. They want 100% renewables and you are an evil monster if you don't agree.

    I have nothing but contempt for that mind-set.

    Last thing... can someone tell me what will happen to the weather, the jet stream and the amount CO2 in the atmosphere if we eliminated all fossil fuels and coal TOMORROW?

    And the answer is not, "We won't know if we don't try SOMETHING."
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    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
  16. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    status/post. It's a medical abbreviation. Sorry. It means, "after the GOP witnessed an attempted and coordinated coup by the Trump people that included attacks on law enforcement officers (THE BLUE) and Trump watching it like it was the Cowboys on Thanksgiving and he was in Jerry's suite. And, yet they still persisted to kiss the ring, then that level of discourse is the new norm".
    • Funny Funny x 2
  17. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I'm not going to moralize about anything. I want rational discourse that acknowledges both sides have a point. I pontificated about it just above.

    I do not feel I fall for personalities. I have stated that I disdained Trump's style and his looseness with the facts. I don't believe he is a White Supremacist in the former definition of the word (aka skinheads; white gangsters from prison; sick idiots etc.). I think he is very egotistical and I don't know if it's because he's white or because he's Trump. I would not look to him for God's word or example. The whole white supremacy thing is so overblown in my mind, just like AOC is overblown in yours. What I think is actually happening, is that white people who read the history of the greatest super power in the history of the planet is that white people founded and ran this country. So they have an understandable pride and point to accomplishment. Trump fed into all of that. They liked his manhood and bravado. Then he stunningly won the election. He's the dog that caught the car he was chasing.

    But like most people, they don't like to think they are evil so the gloss over slavery and Jim Crow laws. They can't make the emotional connection.

    Which brings us to white privilege. What are we supposed to actually do if we admit it exists? Open our wallets and pay reparations? Just be nicer people? Ramp up affirmative action even higher? A combination of all that? Which cult of personality is pushing all of that?

    We can pay reparations, send COVID-19 checks, the green deal and now we have to winterize.

    You have any money for all of that? Who should we listen to because that's all we got; speeches made by trained hucksters.

    You have a favorite personality?
  18. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Agree with what you said. Gen 3/4 nuclear is the way to go.
  19. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    35% of the GOP feels he was sent by Jesus H. Christ himself to save us. I don't get that.

    I mostly agree with you. We can't afford all of that.

    I have no favorite "personalities". I think all of our leaders have their views marginalized by the other side. I could point to a few things that Trump did well but I could point to many more that I don't agree with.

    I just think the longer that the GOP snuggles up to Trump and his family the darker our future will be.
  20. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I don't get it either. My personal Christian beliefs would say only an idiot would think that. But then I'm judging my neighbor!

    I have been plagued by my ex-wife who is a Christian zealot in every sense of the word. I recently gained full custody of my 17 year old daughter and my 24 year old son has very little to do with her. She is so wracked with thoughts that Jesus is communicating with her that she needs mental health care. And yes, she loves Trump. She calls her Honda Pilot, "The Donald."

    I am fully aware that I've been in attack mode on this forum. But I will say this, Christians such as you described and the PTSD from my problems with my ex leaves me in the same spot as I am about the Liberalism I abhor. I don't like them. Maybe I should post more about them and I don't know why I haven't. It may be because I have a cultural sentimentality about the Bible and going to church. They say we are a Christian nation but I say we have a Christian culture evidenced by the rituals of Christmas, Easter and Sunday church that creates so many family memories for millions of Americans including whites, blacks and Hispanics. I love the idea of Jesus. His words are incredible. The Sermon on the Mount confounded everyone and it is the way to live. That and maybe a side order of Buddhism (the cause of all suffering is desire).

    But I see no modern day prophets; only modern day profits.

    There are great big hearts in our world. Many people who get it. The activist heart is vital and welcome. But it is misplaced at times when combined with government power. And a person on a mandate from God can be even more dangerous because it seems to emanate from an echo chamber inside of the trance like prayer state they achieve. They pray and pray and pray and the desired outcomes becomes the voice.

    What I will say about that is that we can do better as far as Conservatism goes. Much better. If the way of governance is prudent in any way, then it needs to be fought for. We can't keep printing money and allow ourselves to depend on the judgment of elected charlatans, ESPECIALLY A PRESIDENT WHO MAKES LAWS VIA EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

    We can't trust them. Checks and balances must be upheld. We need a braking mechanism. I used to think the Republicans were the Party of No because the feminist zealots refused to negotiate. They were offended by a Senator who addressed them as "ladies." That's just one anecdote but it shows how the climate is so ridiculously perilous.

    Give me your view. I'll give you mine. I bet we could figure it out together because I think you are reasonable. We have to identify those who are about destruction and not about construction. We have to have the courage to say NO. Or at least say, "In part, not all."

    The zealous mind is best served as an activist conscience. Not as a nut job with power.
    • Like Like x 1
  21. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    "They want 100% renewables and you are an evil monster if you don't disagree."

    That should be "... if you don't agree." I'm typing too fast.
  22. Run Pincher

    Run Pincher 1,000+ Posts

    Not a damn thing. There's nothing the US can do that will make a difference because 90% of pollution comes from China and India. Even if those countries adopted the same strict energy guidelines as proposed in the US (which will never happen) it would take 50 years to start making a difference.
  23. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    All that from s/p? Ha...

    I have a feeling those who kissed the rings would never try that after seeing the aftermath.

    I don't kiss rings except my wife's.
  24. OUBubba

    OUBubba Reluctant and Bullied Sponsor

    Kevin McCarthy is a great example of kissing the ring. He lambasted Trump during the insurrection trying to get him to stop his people. He refused - "Well, Kevin, I guess these people are more upset about the election than you are,"

    McCarthy talked a little trash and then flew his way to Mar a lago to kiss the ring. Key Republicans went from blaming Trump for the deadly Capitol attack to fighting his impeachment in just 3 weeks
  25. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Post-GOP Trump...

    This is CPAC. Those "conservatives" are weird. It was the same crowd that adorn themselves in Red hats and Trump flags that proclaimed the liberals were hero-worshiping Obama. The difference is, those "Hope" signs were put away right after the election.

  26. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 2,500+ Posts

    The actual difference is Obama sucked. I did like the Obama chia pet hair collectible.
    • Funny Funny x 2
  27. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    Seattle Husker. I totally agree. That is WEIRD and STUPID. Trump was like 40% okay when you compare him to actual conservatism. I really don't get the worship. That is obvious idolatry.
    • Like Like x 1
  28. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Think the Hope signs were put away because hope was lost?
  29. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    IMO, the problem with Trump keeping a role in the GOP is the same as it was during his presidency. Once you are in his orbit you have to not only support positions that you might have supported before, you now have to start defending Trump the personality, even if you really dislike it. Trump will likely play nice for the next 3 years and he'll ACT like a team player because he likely realizes that his failure to help the party is probably the biggest reason Republicans like me will refuse to vote for him again. He'll attempt to persuade everyone that he can be there for the party and there for the agenda even when he isn't getting all the glory.

    I for one don't buy it. I'm not sure there has ever been a more narcissistic man and once he is back in good graces, and secures the party nomination he will return to his narcissist core.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  30. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    Best case for Rs is a whole bunch of DeSantises. Trump needs to go play golf. His fight and attitude was good. I want more of that from Rs. But we need more clear effort to reduce the size and power of government. Trump wanted to expand it in many ways and make himself the hero.
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