Question for Christians

Discussion in 'Quackenbush's' started by NickDanger, Jan 14, 2010.

  1. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I think the problem is that many Christians want to treat God like a law of physics. Completely consistent in how every issue is handled.

    Has God intervened directly to punish a wicked person or a wicked nation? The scriptures clearly point out that he has. They also clearly show examples where he did NOT do that. It's interesting to note that Ahab - quite possibly the most despicable king in all Israel's history - also had one of the longest reigns.

    The bottom line is God does what He deems appropriate based on His plan. More often than not, it's a waste of time to figure out whether God caused a nation to fall or a criminal to get caught or whatever, because we simply don't know. The scripture is very clear in teaching that if we want justice on evil, we're often not going to see it in this life. Bad people sometimes get away with it and have very successful lives. But they won't escape God's judgment.

    Ultimately, I believe that to truly understand why God does what He does, we have to start with the premise that this life and this existence on earth is NOT the end-all be-all. This is simply a preparation ground and an opportunity for mankind to make a decision - who do I want to serve? Am I willing to submit my will to God? All the other stuff is just window dressing.
  2. SDhorn

    SDhorn 250+ Posts

  3. NickDanger

    NickDanger 2,500+ Posts

    Cruel is using 101 Dalmation puppies to make a coat. Cruel Devil/Cruella Deville.

    Nothing else qualifies. Except maybe not letting your stepdaughter go to a dance or gorking a really pretty babe and surrounding her with some sick, stupid smelly and undersized men.
  4. NBMisha

    NBMisha 500+ Posts

    When Colt went down, God was punishing me. My apologies to you all.
  5. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

  6. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

  7. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

  8. rickysrun

    rickysrun 2,500+ Posts

  9. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts


    If the bible is not allowed into the discussion then we all have our opinions and they are all equally worthless when discussing the character and activity of God.

    And yes, you understanding of my statement is correct. Which just goes to show that we really don't know why exactly God allowed the earthquake in Haiti. I am using the Bible again, but it would support either statement.

    My definition of cruelty is to cause suffering simply for the enjoyment of seeing others suffer. When we describe situations as cruel like a child dieing in his/her parents arms, we are referring to the degree of suffering the people had to go through. It does not necessarily mean there was agent causing the tragedy so that it could enjoy watching the misery. I said God is not cruel because while He is in control of everything, He is not directly responsible for natural disasters or injuries in football games and He surely gains no pleasure from seeing them happen. The existence of sin in this world and its curse is directly responsible. The great thing about God is that He uses these bad circumstances to produce good effects in people's lives.
  10. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

  11. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

  12. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

  13. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    rickysrun, first sorry to hear about the horrible experiences you have had with Christians. We have all had them, with Christian and non, but it seems to hurt just a little more when the person is a Christian. They (we) should act different, right? I agree.

  14. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts


  15. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

  16. NBMisha

    NBMisha 500+ Posts

    So, God did not control that situation? Chose not to, or could not? The latter does not compute the notion of God. The former... is a failure in accountability, pure and simple. Nah, not me, not him, no way, couldn't be.

    The death of 6 million was cruel and horrific. Either God controlled that, or he has limited powers. Which is it?
  17. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    The problem once again, and I go back to my original point, is that many of you continue to work under the assumption that this life and this world should be designed as completely fair and that any time God "allows" something bad to happen, it's on Him.

    This world was never designed to be fair or perfect. It was not designed to be permanent. It was designed as a vehicle for man to live, to make his choice on whether he would serve God or self, and to grow in regard to that decision.

    The idea that God should now build a hedge around mankind so that nothing bad ever happens is simply ridiculous.

    When a drunk driver takes the life of an innocent, who is to blame? God gives us free will, and an unfortunate consequence is that we suffer for the decisions of others.

    When Hitler and Stalin went on their murderous rampage, who is to blame? WE allowed it. We allowed evil men to take power, and we carried out the plans they set in place. It is man's free will.

    When the inquisition took place, who was to blame? Christians, not God, because we allowed the church hierarchy to achieve a level of power that they never should have attained, and then Christians simply accepted their leadership and went along ignoring God's commandments in favor of man's.

    When people die - via natural disaster, disease, natural cause, whose fault is it? It's simply a fact of life. All people die one way or another, none of us are guaranteed anything in that regard. When you look at it from a spiritual standpoint, the man who dies in an avalanche and the one who lives 30 more years and dies in his bed both meet the same end, and they face the same eternal prospects. It is certainly always a tragedy when a life is cut short, but it is a reality of life. To simply expect God to shield us from any wrongdoing is to ask for the mother of all nanny states where we all walk around with God's hand over our head keeping us from doing anything that might hurt ourselves or others. Simply put, that is not free will; that's puppetry.

  18. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

    There is quite a chasm and inherent difficulties in conversing with people who a) think that evil/sin in the world is a result of Adam & Eve"falling" and b) who think the world was created for the purpose of man to inhabit.

    But most religions seem to project their own idiosyncratic world-view on their followers.
  19. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

  20. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

  21. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    quote]There is quite a chasm and inherent difficulties in conversing with people who a) think that evil/sin in the world is a result of Adam & Eve"falling" and b) who think the world was created for the purpose of man to inhabit.

  22. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts

    Say what?

    Why don't you say it? Not everybody (probably only Christians) attribute evil in the world to original sin (which, after all, is a Christian concept). When people use their religious beliefs to shape and define their view of the natural world it usually tends to skew their observations.

    As far as the world being created so that man can inhabit it, I'm sure that there are other belief systems that agree.

    But the more people tend to let their outlook be defined by their religion, be it Christian or Muslim, the more "noise" is introduced.

    I think geology, maybe even plate tectonics, caused the earthquake, not whether the Haitians were bad, or good, or had too little or to much faith. That type of analysis just breaks down when you get down to it. There may be some religion that attributes earthquakes to a turtle changing positions. Within the context of a religious framework that view is just as valid.
  23. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    A point of agreement. I believe that geology caused the earthquake too.

    My explanations have been in response to the question posed in the original post. It was a spiritual question, so I gave a spiritual answer. But on a physical level I absolutely agree with you.
  24. THEU

    THEU 2,500+ Posts

    1. The fact that whenever they say they've "prayed" about something, that no matter what, it's a done deal. Can't argue with that, they had a convo w/God. For example: i asked my ex wife to consider moving to Austin for many reasons, she calls me 2 days later to say she isn't going to because she prayed about it. That's total ********, but can't argue, Jesus is her alibi.

    I could argue with her. There is no Biblical rationale for not moving to Austin. In fact, when you husband goes, then there are numerous Biblical reasons TO go, and none to not go. Which means, she did the opposite of pray. She used God as an excuse not to do something she should have.

    2. The cherry picking of the Good Book. Can't use old and new testament. Jesus freed people from the burden of the Law, quit using OT **** to scare people.

    Jesus says he came to fulfill the OT, not to replace it. There is of course much disagreement on the relationship between the Law and Grace, but to use the OT to scare people is wrong whether you are Jewish or Christian. There are people on here, and many Christians who would be right there saying cherry picking is wrong. Monahorns, did a great job already going through these, and I know my answers are simialr to his, even though we don't know each other.

    3. The final straw was the 2 of the biggest influences on my adult life were 2 of the best Christian men I knew. Both of them have never spoken to me again after my divorce, and never once apologized for the horrible accusations they threw at me. Why? Because God hates divorce. Thank goodness for my secular family and friends who showed more of "God's love" than my "Christian" friends/influences.

    God does say He hates divorce. He also says forgive sin, says there are reasons for divorce, and He also states to not lie. These 'friends' of yours that were Christians seem to follow Jesus pretty poorly. It shoulds like the problem isn't that they follow Jesus, but that they were people claiming to follow Jesus when they weren't. They should have loved you through your hard time of divorce, and not spread lies about you.

    I am a follower of Jesus. I do a terrible job of that most days. I mess up. I do what I want rather than that I know Jesus calls me to do. I also just do the wrong thing sometimes trying to do what is right. Generally, the hurt I cause others is NOT because I try to follow Jesus, but because I try and have failed.
  25. CrazyFoo'

    CrazyFoo' 250+ Posts

    God has the power to stop something, but doesn’t. I equal this with causing. An analogy to explain. I have the power to stop my car for the stroller that’s crossing the street, yet I chose not to. Do not question my decision. Trust that I know more than you and only did this heinous act because I was trying to prevent another UNKNOWN bad thing from happening. I also had the power to stop the other UNKNOWN bad thing from happening (without killing the innocent baby), but I chose this way for reasons you shouldn’t question. Besides, think of all the great character I built by causing the parents to see such tragedy – why they will have another baby now. You should be thanking me. Don’t worry – I never give anyone anything they can’t handle – accept when they kill themselves which is a sin and not caused by physiological trauma (which I allowed and could have stopped but chose not to).

    Sorry guys, but I don’t like your God. I’m happy you are at peace with that, but it doesn’t jive with me. I have been baptized, saved, churched 3 times a week, lived in a missionary camp as a youth. Became an atheist in college. Fought tooth and nail for 10 years to get my Christian faith back and got re-saved (if there was such a thing) & re-baptized. I started throwing away everything this world has taught me about Jesus, and I just sat with the Word. I’m not conflicted anymore.

    I hate it when Christians deny things they see in their own bible. Jesus cries out “Why have you forsaken me” on the cross. There are hundreds of other such occurrences which strongly suggest Jesus and God are separate and several New Testament contradictions. But no. Christians must believe everything the pastor told them or they are sinning. We must invent some convoluted explanation with no biblical support so we continue to believe what the preacher told us to believe and not rely on reading the actual synoptic gospels.

    I think you have three choices when stuff isn’t adding up. You either assume it’s beyond your understanding, you create a 2nd truth that makes things make sense, or you try to figure out why they don’t make sense and look for the real truth. Anyone who says “it’s beyond our understanding” is basically saying “I know this sounds stupid, but I don’t want to think about what you are suggesting.” Perhaps Paul didn’t just have an “event” and all of a sudden become a Christian. Perhaps the Jesus we know has been molded and shaped by Roman political power. I don’t want to get started because nobody wants to hear my BS anyway, and I’ve already let it get too thick. But I believe everything I say. I have more faith now than I ever have. I praise the Lord for HIS guidance and not the churches. (did you know the REAL church that was supposed be started by Peter. Peter didn't care for Paul - verses in the bible suggest that - Yet a self-appointed Apostle, not an actual one who Jesus chose, is responsible for much of the bible and the de facto founder of the Christian church. Don’t you find it odd that the most of the New Testament was written by a guy who didn't know Jesus and just-so-happens to be a Gentile? Do you think the ROMAN GENTILE emporer and Nicean council had anything to do with that? We say God let's things happen, right, free will? James had Paul arrested so he didn’t care for him either. Only Paul’s family got him out of jail – why not a Christian follower or leader? Must stop diarrhea of the mouth because this isn't the place).
  26. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

  27. CrazyFoo'

    CrazyFoo' 250+ Posts

    I know - i tend to get free form and just spill it out on the keyboard. The subject did not call for that, and I certainly didn't present my thoughts in a coherent manner. Such clarity takes time I was unwilling to invest.

    I have no personal demons. If you'd like me to clarify something or if you'd like to challenge/change my views, please. Your goal is just to patronize me, so I don't feel the need to say anything else. I'm not mad. I like you Prodigal, and your comment was funny (perhaps some truth). This is a subject for which I have a lot of passion.
  28. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I know, that's why I figured you were kind of venting about a lot of that. [​IMG]

    I would disagree with a few of the points you made, but that's for another thread. Having said that, I think it's hard to miss that you're right, a lot of Christians simply are either inconsistent or flat-out don't understand what they're talking about in many instance.

    I always use this analogy. I can go buy a Dallas Cowboys uniform, run around on the field with a football all day long and claim that I'm going to be taking snaps on Sunday, but that doesn't make me a Dallas Cowboy. But religiously, I can pretty much call myself a Christian regardless of anything else I may say or do. As a result, the brand does get a little diluted!
  29. NBMisha

    NBMisha 500+ Posts

    So, who is the Jerry Jones of Christianity?

  30. Perham1

    Perham1 2,500+ Posts


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