Mia & Buckhorn, I appreciate your thoughtful replies. I agree that the rights of the student should be protected. I also think that the young lady poses a risk to fragile individuals if she's allowed to practice under the guidance of 'homosexuality is sin'. I don't think the issue is a simple one - the rights of the student to be guided by her beliefs versus the concerns of her professors that her beliefs threaten her effectiveness as a therapist. My impulse is to trust the judgement of her teachers. They know the art of therapy. They know the dangers involved in misapplication of that art. They know, at least better than I, what Jennifer's statements have been. If they say that Jennifer needs sensitivity training then I provisionally support their decision.
By "imposing her religion" on the educational institution, I meant her lawsuit. Would you feel the same if a student in geology or anthropology wanted her views graded "fairly" if they believed the earth was 4000 years old, and did not accept evolution? Wouldn't this be counter to the educational mission of the school? We don't know the details of the student's complaint, so I don't know how far she went, or how far the school went, either. Maybe she has some basis. She has the right to believe any religious teachings she wants, but not to have the school teach them, or grade her correctly on papers or exams when she expresses her beliefs in an academic setting. I'm sure all of you will be defending Muslim students who want their version of events taught in our schools.
I don't know how many here are trained in counseling or have any license in counseling or psychology. I am not the best person to ask, because I am not an expert, but I do have a couple of master's level counseling classes that I have taken (and passed). My position is different in that I took these classes at a Christian seminary/grad school, and I have and MDiv. I am NOT a counseling major nor do I have any specialised training or credentials, just some basc courses in counseling. I want to be clear on that because I am indeed someone who counsels people. I do premarital counseling, I counsel people through divorces, and marital problems. I also counsel people through job loss. These are some of the major areas that I deal with in the realm of being a pastor. Now, when people come to me, then know I have a slant, a bent. For instance, when people come to me and have marital problems or want a divorce, they know that in general, I don't see divorce as a positive. They know that when they come in. I can NOT as a pastor-counselor tell them they can't get divorced. I don't say 'You know, God hates divorce.' That is NOT counseling. Do I believe that there is always a chance at reconciliation? Yes. Do I believe that seperation is sometimes in the best interest of one or both? Yes. Do I try to assess and work with the emotional and spiritual needs of people? Yes. What counselors do NOT do, more often than not is give answers. They tend much more to guide people into working through their own problems. Actually, counselors help the client identify the problems which they want dealt with. A client may come in with depression. No matter the personal beliefs of the counselor it is in appropriate to say something like, "Maybe you are depressed because you are gay." That wouldn't be ethical. Neither would the opposite. "Maybe you would be happier if you just turned gay." These are not ethical within how the counseling relationship is to work. This is probably not the best written post on here on this matter, but I hope I am getting my intended point across. The point is her personal beliefs about homosexuality shouldn't guide her counseling in a secular counseling setting. My situation is different as a pastor, but even then, I try not impose my beliefs upon a client. If someone came to me about homosexuality for instance, I would ask the person what they thought God thinks about their lifestyle choices? etc.... Not just say.... "You shouldn't be gay, God hates fags." In fact, saying things like that make me mad even to type.
good thread...thanks GT.... so I am in an interesting place on this issue because i have counseled multiple people who struggle with this issue. i also believe it is a sin (not the issue but the praxis) and i have told them as much. i also believe that their homosexuality is a result of nurture and nature (in most cases) but that neither makes it ok any more than being an alcoholic is ok morally due to nature and nurture. i have lovingly challenged them to pursue God's plan that they live a life free of this entanglement. as an aside....i have found alarmingly consistent patterns in the men i have counseled in this area in relation to their parental relationships. knowing that this is anecdotal i will also mention that i have heard statistics that back up the notion that a far larger portion of gays and lesbians have difficult relationships or nonexistent relationships with their parents (not all of them obviously). i wonder if any on here who think homosexuality is fine nonetheless recognize these general patterns. i was actually told by one of my students (who is gay) that Dr. Drew on lovelines (sp?) (i know...terrible source in one sense) actually acknowledges such a link even though he sees nothing wrong with homosexuality. for the record, my student does not like that i think it is wrong and would love for me to tell him it is fine.....
Invested? Are we going to go around referring to any idea that anyone believes in as something that they're invested in? Or will we use it only for the ideas that our adversaries believe in?
buckhorn, I believe in Christians want to shout out a warning about a 'threat' to marriage, it would be about divorce, and NOT homosexual unions. I agree with Richard Daley who stated (paraphrase as I remember it) "homosexual unions are not a threat to marriage, divorce is a threat to marriage." I believe that if Christians want to start talking about relational and sexual sins, that there are much 'bigger' issues than homosexuality.
yeah...it's tricky. i DO believe that homosexuality is a threat to a society....but not necessarily to marriage at all. actually, i believe that homosexuality and a host of other sins actually undermine our moral authority as a nation. i know that when God brings up Homosexuality in Leviticus he puts it between bestiality and child sacrifice and after a host of other very disturbing sexual practices......probably the ONLY one that wouldn't bother all of us here is the law about having sex during a menstrual period. the chapter ends by saying
mop Tricky indeed. Now it sounds like you do want to shout 'look out for that bus, and, while you're at it, think about this: if we don't halt homosexuality's march into broader realms of behavior perceived as acceptable, it will eventually rain fire and the very land we live upon will become sterile and force us out into oblivion!' If that is what you believe how can you no preach to the unwitting?
I don't think it's an issue of God's punishment. I tend to associate the punishment/interventionist phase of the Old Testament with Israel's national and physical connection with God, a connection that was apparently muted in the post-exilic period. It's more of an issue that it's not how God wants us to behave, and therefore we shouldn't behave in that way. To do so is contrary to the will of God. Now, you can say that many people don't believe in my God, and that's fine, but for those of us who do believe, we hold it to be a sin not just for ourselves, but for all humanity. And we are our brother's keeper. We discourage its practice, if we do so righteously, out of love for our neighbor and concern for his spiritual well-being. That doesn't mean that we should seek to go out of our way to meddle in other people's lives. Nor does it mean, in my opinion, that homosexuality is somehow a more egregious sin than any other. All sin is hateful to God; all sin puts the human soul at hazard. I don't believe Christians should go around actively searching for homosexuals to vilify or condemn. But the fact is that society sometimes puts Christians in a position where their values on these issues become relevant to their interactions within society--i.e. the Christian counselor confronted with a homosexual patient, or a policy by a university that seeks to marginalize Christian values based on its view of homosexuality as a sin. In those cases, we will call it what it is: a sin.
Christ was extraordinarily radical. He associated with sinners as a matter of course. f the student has indicated, through her actions or communication, a need to push her beliefs on others, in a way that might be detrimental to their mental health, then the administration has been appropriate in condeming her. If they have assumed she might be liable to be condemming, based on their understanding of her beliefs, then she has been wronged.
