Rick Barnes and Mack Brown ...

Discussion in 'Classics' started by Barton Hills, Dec 18, 2007.

  1. Jive_Turkey

    Jive_Turkey 1,000+ Posts

    Well, if we spread those same 9 points around, we could just as easily be 6-6. We won 3 games by 3 points (against very average teams). So give each opponent 3 points in those game, they're all tied, and we could have lost all 3 in OT.

    Do you not see that? It works both ways. You can't just say we were 9 points from a possible BCS bowl game without looking at the close games we barely won.

    Over 12 games, things evened out, and we weren't a BCS bowl team. Again.
     
  2. Bob in Houston

    Bob in Houston 2,500+ Posts

    This has been a good thread.
    Just yesterday, I was talking with my daughter about her GPA, which is not perfect, but pretty close. She was not pleased because making all A’s no longer moves the average, but getting just one B dings it a bit. The connection is that if you have a national level program, the improvement usually is not dramatic. But just this season, RB has taken his team, still dominated by underclassmen, to a neutral floor and thrashed a top-10 team. Then they went to a No. 1/2 team’s floor and won. That, to me is dramatic.

    This also applies to football, in that the dings seem disastrous, while great wins – which Nebraska and Oklahoma State were, when they easily could have been devastating losses – were just holding the status quo.

    But I can show you progress, in terms of basketball, as I have posted previously. If you eliminate the Final Four season, Barnes’s teams won 90 games in the four years prior, and 100 games in the four years after. The NCAA seed average was six before, and four after (and would have lower than four but for the season when LaMarcus Aldridge was injured and P.J. Tucker flunked out).

    In other words, the trend is still upward
    . But it needs to be, if Texas basketball is going to reach the level that Texas football has been at, and Mack Brown is attempting to sustain.
    Well, when the basketball team was not favored to beat Kansas in either game last year (and was favored over USC by a bucket or so), and the football team was favored to beat A&M both of the last two years, that’s going to affect the perception of the performance.
     
  3. bullzak

    bullzak 500+ Posts

    Hey, I like them both.

    This idea that Brown had all this wind at his back is ********. Sure, we had tradition, but this program was a mess. Broken fan base, mediocre recruiting, spotty results.

    4-7 the year before Brown got here.

    In the last FOUR YEARS Brown has lost 7 games. He has won 43 and a title.

    Texas Football has a lot going for it. Brown helped re-ignite a lot of that.

    I love Barnes and wouldnt trade him for anyone, but why does he get a free pass for washing out of the tourney so early last year with the National Player of the Year?

    Look around the landscape. For every Pete Carroll, there is a Richt or Rodriguez. Great coaches who so far havent sniffed a title game.

    Urban Meyer followed a national championship by losing 3 games with the Heisman Trophy winner at QB in his super duper offense.

    I am not all excited [or surprised] about 9-3 this year, but some people need to get a grip.
     
  4. TheTresLeches

    TheTresLeches 250+ Posts

    Six of those losses have come in the last two years. That sentence couldn't have been said better by Mack Brown or written by Bill Little.
     
  5. starchild

    starchild 500+ Posts

    i think barnes is just a tougher coach. he is demanding of his players, will bench players in a heartbeat, and will work their arses off. i like some of the things he does--like making his players submit a list each week ranking each player from hardest worker to the one who is showing the least amount of effort. he compiles the lists and posts the results for the team to see. a lot of hornfans would like to see rick's toughness on the football field. bottom line is that both are great coaches and great guys, but rick is simply a no b.s. kind of guy that demands excellence.
     
  6. whereiend

    whereiend 100+ Posts

    I'm one of the "can't win them all" variety of Texas football fans, so I'm not freaking out about Mack. He is a good coach, and as long as he makes necessary changes to the defensive staff after this season I don't have a problem with the job he is doing. It's also fair to point out that he is the #2 most successful coach in Texas football history and he is on pace to take the #1 spot. So regardless of how great some of you perceive our "resources" to be, we haven't had any coaches (even DKR) win as many games with consistency as Mack does.

    That being said, I think Barnes is a better coach. The shot you take at Barnes for "not winning anything with the best player of the last decade" is just as ignorant (if not more) as comments like "omg brown can't win without Vince Young!!." That Texas team started four freshman and one sophomore--it was likely the youngest team to ever make the NCAA tournament; it's not fair to expect too much from a team that young regardless of how talented they are.

    Also, as others have pointed out, basketball is not football. Several "elite" programs have fallen off the map in recent years (Syracuse, Maryland, and to a lesser extent Michigan State.) UConn won two titles in the last decade yet failed to make the NCAA tournament last season with a young team similar to ours (actually quite a bit more experienced than ours.) Illinois has been stunningly mediocre since their great 2004 season. Kansas has been a joke in the NCAAs, etc.

    Barnes has had some bad timing with early entries, but he is pretty much one "TJ ford back for his junior year" or one "DJ Augustin is a freshman for 2005 team instead of 2006" from being Billy Donovan, and I very much think that it will happen soon (maybe even as soon as this season.)
     
  7. Pancho Negro

    Pancho Negro 250+ Posts


    you must be new to this board....
     
  8. Duff_Man

    Duff_Man Guest

    __________________________________________________
    Scenario for you:
    1. Next year the football team sucks and we go 4-8 with the worst offense in D-1. Mack will tell us that we are 3 years removed from a national title and Greg Davis holds all the records here at Texas.
    2. Basketball team sucks and goes 10-22. Do you think Barnes would sit there and tell us all that we have X amount of McD AAs and have made the sweet 16 X times in the last X years? **** no he wouldn't.
    That is the difference.
    __________________________________________________

    Game. Blouses.
     
  9. MinnesotaHorn

    MinnesotaHorn 25+ Posts

    In reply to:
    [hr]I love Barnes and wouldnt trade him for anyone, but why does he get a free pass for washing out of the tourney so early last year with the National Player of the Year?
    [hr]

    This is soooooo ******* tiresome. Read Bob in Houston's post right above yours.

    Honestly the comparisons get tiresome although obviously they're inevitable. The thing of it is we've got a great basketball program right now and it deserves to be appreciated as more than just a club to use against the football coach. At the same time it deserves far
    more than to have its historic, unprecedented accomplishments denigrated by those who simply bristle at any criticism of the football program.
     
  10. Texas Wahoo

    Texas Wahoo 1,000+ Posts

    First of all, that would never happen. Second of all, if that were to happen, heads would roll.

    That is all.
     
  11. shotgun427

    shotgun427 250+ Posts

    Jive, I certainly see it. I am far from happy about this season. My comment was not intended to be a high-five to Mack on what a great year he's had. My post was an indictment of our fans fickleness and their inability to keep perspective. Just the other day somebody came on here talking about how 'cougar high' fans were laughing at us.

    Do I wish that UT would win the National Championship every year? Of course. I guaran-*******-tee you though that if you polled Texas fans in 1997 and asked them would you be happy if over the next 10 season you would go 65-15 in conference play, 102-25 over all, that Texas would spend the next 115 weeks (at least) in the top 25, that we would go 6-3 over the next nine bowls including wins over USC, Ohio St. LSU, and Michigan, that we'd win a National Championship, that we'd get to watch the most exciting player in the history of college football play, 100% of the people would have been jumping for joy.That is perspective.
     
  12. NickDanger

    NickDanger 2,500+ Posts

    It's apples and oranges. Mack Brown isn't even a coach, much less a better coach than Rick Barnes. He is more Director of Football. If he gets graded as Director of Football he gets a bit of a pass for sticking with Akina (up until now - if he doesn't make a change then he's crazy). He gets a "D" for sticking with Davis. He gets an "A" for recruiting. He gets probably a "C" for being a gameday motivator.

    I don't really follow basketball as a fanatic so I can't comment on Barnes, but his record in the postseason doesn't seem all that different from Penders to the casual fan like me. It's more along the lines of Penders got a couples of wins when he shouldn't have and Barnes got some losses he shouldn't have. Doing more with less and doing less with more can end up being the same thing.
     
  13. WhoooTex

    WhoooTex 100+ Posts

    I'm just pissed Bob Weltlich isn't getting his due for preparing Texas basketball to be put back on the map by Tom Penders. If it weren't for Kaiser Bob's tireless efforts, we wouldn't have even needed Penders. Weltlich was a Knight disciple, people. SHOW SOME RESPECT OR I'M GETTING MY RIFLE OUT AND PELLETS WILL RAIN ON YOUR POOL.

    MEET ME AT THE SALAD BAR IF YOU'RE MAN ENOUGH.
     
  14. Bob in Houston

    Bob in Houston 2,500+ Posts

    Penders's teams probably were a bit underseeded... that, and one of his better skills was the ability to get his teams to relax and play well in the NCAAs.

    Barnes has had four seeds better than Penders' best (a 5), and he's never had a double-digit seed (Penders had three).

    Penders was 10-8, with two second weekends. Barnes is 13-9, with four second weekends.

    YMMV.
     
  15. Ankf00

    Ankf00 500+ Posts

    but I'm not 40.
     
  16. 4realhorn

    4realhorn 500+ Posts

    You're right you really dont follow basketball much.
     

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