Discussion in 'Men’s Basketball' started by James Street, Mar 20, 2021.

  1. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 5,000+ Posts

    Thank you for understanding and not pushing us down the old road that led straight to Bob Weltlich's door.

    The coaching tree has not and is not bearing any fruit, and the cupboard is BARE!


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  2. zztx1

    zztx1 25+ Posts

    CDC operates by looking for the replacement first. When Urban was not coming, Herman was safe, when Sark opened up, Herman got fired. I think he did it with womens bb and with softball. Hire first, then let the coach go. I assume he would do the same here. But the money is still too big to pay out during covid. The stadium is under construction. I think next year because of the Big 12 cs.
  3. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 5,000+ Posts

    Money is NOT an issue. The Moody family wrote a $150 million check to put their name on a $325 million facility that Chris got for free. Chris wants a quality coach, in whom the fan base has total faith and supports by buying tickets. Someone NOT named Shaka Smart will be running the program when Moody Center opens. Can you imagine the Moody family coming from Galveston for the opening game and finding 1200 people inside? Mary Moody Northern was a customer of mine and a grand lady, BUT she would likely have dismantled the place if she was around to see that.

    You are correct on the other parts of your post.
  4. old65horn

    old65horn 1,000+ Posts

    I have a little higher exception from our basketball program that what we have received in the last 6 years, We are paying millions for a coach that runs a clean program? That is all we are getting. We have a NIT trophy, we are no. 69!, and a conference tourney trophy that means nothing. Barnes final 4 team lost the first game of conference tourney because it means nothing unless you are trying to just get into the dance. This year was even worse because of the covid forfeit that benefited us.

    You realize that 6 other basketball programs in the state finish the big dance ahead of us. That makes us no. 7 in the state of Texas.

    Doesn't the coach have some responsibility for repeated brain farts by a player that cost us games? Especially since there is a season long pattern of the same mistakes. Isn't the coach responsible to have a team ready to play with a week to prepare? What do they do in practice, play a game of "HORSE"? I expect more than to finish in the bottom half of the big 12 MOST of the time. I want to win an NCAA tourney game more than once in a decade I do not think we exceed 1 if Smart is here 10 tears.. Did Greg Brown improve during the season? I did not see it, I thought his performance deteriorated to the point he did not get playing time.

    The TO's did not just surface in the ACU game, that, and too many fouls have plagued this team since the first game. 20 TO's in a game is NOT unusual for this team. Did you see anything different from the start of the ACU until the end, I did not. What adjustments were made?

    This team was very talented, and undisciplined. That is on the coach

    I am sorry, for millions of dollars a year, I expect more that being the 7th best program in the state of Texas but just run a clean program. How can you be sure of that? It certainly wasn't clear that Barnes wasn't if what you say is true. It must not have been a big issue or we would be on probation. We are not getting what we are paying for. A nice guy, yes. Players love him. Good coach NO.
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    Last edited: Mar 23, 2021
  5. beijinghorn1

    beijinghorn1 500+ Posts

    For sure CDC has a difficult choice, as Shaka has supporters and detractors. Normally it would be an easy choice... ticket sales. Perhaps someone with more insight than me has a forecast on next years ticket sales. In my opinion it is harder to hire a basketball coach at Texas as compared to a football coach. Why? The football coach only needs to win, he does not need an entertaining product. In basketball, you have to win and entertain (we want Phi Slamma Jamma, not a defensive mastermind) plus you have to win in the NCAA tournament, the only time of year when +/- 85% of Texas fans watch basketball. Of course for football and basketball equally, our coaches now have to be able to navigate the minefield of the BLM movement. I will support CDC either way and wish him the best of luck as he has found himself in the middle of a horrible situation far worse than the football situation (I think far worse as I did not really sense any support from Herman, but you could say due to the much lower lever of interest in basketball it is an easier situation).
  6. mb227

    mb227 2,500+ Posts

    I suspect that fans could embrace a Princeton-esque slowdown if it meant going 30-2 and at least getting to the Final Four on a regular basis. Hell, that sort of thing allowed Valvano's NC State team to shut down Phi Slamma Jamma.

    The problem is recruiting for a system like that because too many of the kids want to be the focus and have the huge numbers, completely overlooking that an ability to showcase SMARTS for the game could actually help a career going forward to the next level...
  7. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    The oversimplifications of "winning the NIT = #69" and "teams that made it to the 2nd round are better than us" is exactly why our fandom doesn't understand the level of elite college basketball programs. I don't doubt for a second that the final AP rankings will have us Top-15. Does anyone without a frontal lobotomy actually believe that ORU is better than Ohio State, or that Mercer was a better squad than Duke, or that UMBC was a better squad than Virginia? **** happens in the tournament. Tearing of clothes and gnashing of teeth is fine for the short term, but we just haven't been there enough to "earn" those later-round games. Nor is the sky falling at nearly the rate people think it is.

    Player development in basketball is just different. Mistakes are amplified because there are only a few players on the court at once. People think that because Ramey was the #41 recruit in the country a few years ago, that his progress should be more consistent. This isn't like Clemson and Alabama in football where you can take the aggregate recruiting rankings and just pontificate where they should be based on that average (although that's another story for another thread about football and our lack of progress there). There are only a handful of players signing at the D1 level for each class and they're weighted based on who they sign with, and our talent has been overrated several different years thanks to one blue chip signing with a bunch of role players (like 2016, 2017, and 2018).

    Does it really look like they play HORSE in practice? They'd be shooting better if they were.

    Brown's performance didn't deteriorate... he pulled a Myles Turner and shut it down because of the impending draft. This is what those elite players do now unless they're upperclassmen and making a deep run. Brown is who he is when he arrived... a showboat who is going to parlay his athleticism into a payday.

    20 turnovers is something that only happened twice to the team this season before ACU, so I'd say it is unusual. And we're kind of a mediocre team with ball control to begin with. That was the most frustrating thing about Saturday, for sure, but I don't think Shaka told them to keep turning it over during the timeouts.

    Finally, I'll say that we have to pay whoever is the HC at the University of Texas a lot. It doesn't matter what the "going rate per win" is across the country. We could sign some assistant HS coach right now to a deal and that no-name dude would still be raking in multimillion dollars.

    Anyone would embrace going 30-2 for any sacrifice. There's no magical formula for finding the combination of HC and players to pull that off, because if there was, colleges would do it. I'll say that Jimmy V made adjustments mid-tournament to catch UH off guard in the championship... NC State didn't play that way most of the season and managed to just up their D level and pace of play at the exact time. It was a sneaky tactic that worked. Not a mantra for the program as a whole.

    I will say I don't see a lot of college guys get drafted based on their ability to pass and be smart. That's what the Euro leagues are for.
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  8. Chop

    Chop 5,000+ Posts

    There you go. Reason enough to keep Shaka. The first clean basketball coach we've had in eons. (I really liked Tournament Tom, but he did have his share of controversy).
  9. longhornlegend

    longhornlegend 250+ Posts

    Facts are tough to argue. This is great for argument, bad for UT basketball. Take skin color of shaka out of the equation and he would already be gone.
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  10. beijinghorn1

    beijinghorn1 500+ Posts

    Well Chop it does seems like Shaka has quite a bit of support. I really hope he is back as I find it impossible to believe we would fire a coach after this great season. Basically it would be the equivalent of firing a football coach who made a tier 1 bowl game, but got blown out in bowl. Does not make sense.
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  11. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    There really just isn't a "football" equivalent to whatever we're going through. "We're Texas" only gets you so far for football, but we don't have any way to connect our basketball program to the blue bloods on the hardwood. Other than randomly beating KU or UNC or whoever.

    I think a good comparison right now would be what A&M is enduring. Neither of us is a basketball power. Kennedy was an up-and-comer from a midmajor. He took them to heights (that we honestly haven't seen under Shaka), but fell much lower than we've been with Smart. So they ended the experiment and go sub-.500 with Buzz. People in Austin want to ditch Smart after a conference championship, not a 14-18 season like Kennedy. It's not going to be "here's $5 million" to any other coach out there to come in with this roster and just make it happen.
  12. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 5,000+ Posts

    Do that and Billie Powers would never have hired him.
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  13. Txreds

    Txreds 250+ Posts

    We lost to a team some Houston High Schools would beat. Enough said. Fire the guy.
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  14. SAMMCHornfan

    SAMMCHornfan 250+ Posts

    Ahhh, you mean like John Makovic did??? Uh, yeah. Care to rehash that one. I hope not, but I think the basketball team is going to be really bad next year. Do they even have any players left? Hamm just went into the portal. Next season could possibly worse than 2016-17. And believe it or not, that team actually had two five star recruits, Jones and Allen. That team challenged for one of the worst Longhorn teams ever, challenging the Kaiser Bob teams. People were actually calling for his job back then. Heck, maybe they can find some hotshot coach to bring in who will bring half his team with him like the softball coach did. Just sayin.
  15. Run Pincher

    Run Pincher 1,000+ Posts

    So now Williams and Hamm have portaled, 2 I thought would for sure be back. Will Shaka even be able to field a team next season?
  16. SAMMCHornfan

    SAMMCHornfan 250+ Posts

    Crap, didn’t know about Williams!
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  17. Sydhank

    Sydhank 100+ Posts

    Wonder if Shaka's been portal'ed and he told his guys and now they are jumping. With the graduations and junior exits Hamm and Williams are surprising with the playing time available next year.
  18. old65horn

    old65horn 1,000+ Posts

    Yes, it was s liberal use of the TO no., just as you calling the conference tourney the championship, especially this year. The chart at the bottom reflects his conference standings. However, the TO no. was greater than 14 @ game 13 times and it did not improve as the season progressed, it deteriorated. That was why I wondered what they did in practice or in the film room instead of pointing out what sloppy dribbling/ passing was leading to the TOs. I will say one of the problems was the lack of a true point guard. That is not a knock on Coleman but a failure of the coaching to make it a primary part of his game to distribute the ball to get people open for a high percentage shot. I saw an awful lot of dribbling and not a lot of passing. However, my knowledge of the game is not close to yours. I admit that.

    At the expense of all other aspects of the game where they were sub par?
    Maybe practice in bounding the ball at crunch time.

    I expect better than this:
    2015–16 Texas 20–13 11–7 4th NCAA Division I Round of 64
    2016–17 Texas 11–22 4–14 10th
    2017–18 Texas 19–15 8–10 T–6th NCAA Division I Round of 64
    2018–19 Texas 21–16 8–10 6th NIT Champion
    2019–20 Texas 19–12 9–9 T–3rd Post-season cancelled due to pandemic
    2020–21 Texas 19–8 12–6 3rd NCAA Division I Round of 64
    Texas: 109–86 (.559) 52–56 (.481)
  19. old65horn

    old65horn 1,000+ Posts

    That's not the issue, return on capital is. We are not getting what we are paying for.
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  20. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Winebibber

    Would you want to stick around for lots of playing time on a team that looks like it will struggle to achieve more than 10 wins next year?
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  21. moondog_LFZ

    moondog_LFZ 2,500+ Posts

    Hamm was a malcontent anyway. Adios.
    Would like to see Williams change his mind.
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  22. Chop

    Chop 5,000+ Posts

    Uh oh...

    Williams leaving changes everything. With Williams gone for next year, it's possible (though unlikely) that we won't win the conference title again next year.
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  23. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    Watching the recruiting clips of Williams, I'm surprised that he didn't exhibit that control this season. Maybe it's just the competition level, but he reminded me of a PJ Tucker type with a thinner frame. Getting boards, running the floor, making good passes, etc. My guess is that he wants to go to a program that can get him back to that level of intensity without sacrificing the playing time he wanted.

    It could also be a sign of which people are returning... *fingers crossed*

    If it truly is a mass exodus, then we're in for a 2017-type season. Like a ceiling of 10-12 wins. But if Coleman, Febres, and/or Sims are taking advantage of the senior rule, AND we're getting Bates and Ellis as shooters, AND we're getting Joplin to play that Hamm role, then our basement would probably be about the same as this year. With or without Brown.
  24. Handler

    Handler 500+ Posts

    So Shaka has 2 scholarship players returning? What a hole he's put the program in.
  25. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    But what I'm saying is that we're going to be paying whoever's here anyhow. We're not guaranteed to win 29 games, and it's likely that if we replaced Smart this instant, we'd be paying someone north of $4MM to come in and win maybe 10-15 games next year.

    The cost-benefit analysis people want to be paying for national championships and NCAA tournament wins, but that's not how the HC scale works at a place like Texas. Maybe if we were a midmajor with a HC earning a base salary of $1MM and then performance-based riders for bonuses you'd be happy.

    Another huge difference between the blue bloods and us when it comes to basketball. Coack K, Roy Williams, and Calipari only bring back 2 guys and they're still expected to compete in their conferences. That's the talent differential we're talking about, not recruiting rankings.
  26. old65horn

    old65horn 1,000+ Posts

    so you are saying we MUST pay a coach at the top of Big 12 scale and accept mid to bottom results. Is that written somewhere?

    I guess it is possible to get somebody worse, but I am willing to take a chance based on what I have seen for 6 years.
  27. longhornlegend

    longhornlegend 250+ Posts

    Although I dont like what shaka has accomplished, dont under estimate that ACU club. They played solid defense and just outplayed and out coached UT. My hats off to them. They also took Texas Tech to the wire so they do play sound fundamental basketball which is a foreign concept to shaka.
  28. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    Yes, but it's not written anywhere. And don't get me wrong: I don't like the lack of success we've had either. But how much we pay the HC at Texas is more of a "We're Texas" thing and less of a results thing. We paid Herman about $1.1MM per win. At least it's not that bad for Smart.
  29. utempire

    utempire 1,000+ Posts

    We've been lacking good ballhandlers since TJ. Barnes never found another even close to him and we've struggled in the big dance ever since. Our guards are not good enough ballhandlers, average to above average shooters, and ACU exploited our biggest weakness. Credit deserved to how hard we played this year, good defense, free throws are better now, beat KU twice, and won the big 12 tourney. Barnes has a ceiling just like Shaka, so a change is necessary. Next season will probably be a struggle and he would definitely be let go then, so might as well make the change now.
  30. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 5,000+ Posts

    The only reason Shaka Smart coached this year was Tom Herman took the heat off of him. The Mensa Myth is gone, and Smart has been moved to the front burner. Unfortunately, the selection pool is empty. I trust Chris will find a candidate worthy of the cash, the new arena, and The University of Texas enabling the department to drive a new excitement with the Moody Center, HC ???, and increased ticket sales and student participation.

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