Substitutions

Discussion in 'Women’s Basketball' started by brnkj, Dec 31, 2017.

  1. brnkj

    brnkj 2,500+ Posts

    I've been waiting to address this... while I am a firm believer in using depth to wear opponents down, there should also be a method to the madness that allows for some flow and continuity. I don't disagree, per se with Aston's substitutions and keeping legs fresh. However, her method of jerking players in and out, in and out, in and out... that's disruptive on so many levels. Just look at the box score... if players enter the game two or three different times yet only play 3 to 5 maybe 6 minutes total... you're not allowing the different combinations to be on the floor together long enough. The revolving door at the scorers table creates nothing less than a constant state of chaos, and it really needs to stop. Furthermore, at this juncture, the minutes off the bench should be going to the players who possess the skill set that you're going to need in March to take you further. There are only a few conference games where you can afford to reward those players who have been there, work hard, yet don't necessarily have the needed skill sets. Keep utilizing the depth, just be a little wiser with the substitutions and allow players to stay on the floor together a little longer. Personally I'd much rather see a player enter the game once for three minutes than two times for three minutes... or twice for a total of 8 minutes versus 3 times for a total of 8 minutes. Let them play long enough to get comfortable. We look so good for the first quarter, then KA opens the revolving door. The players not only look confused but also tend to play tentatively afraid to be jerked for making a mistake. Maybe that's why UConn maintains a certain level of quality...because when they do substitute there's not mass chaos going on. The Texas cupboard is FULL of talent... Now do something with it and stop cutting us off at the knees.
     
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  2. WCBBNUT

    WCBBNUT 2,500+ Posts

    That revolving door has bugged me for several seasons. Karen does not sub well IMHO
     
  3. kurupt

    kurupt 1,000+ Posts

    Makeup your mind. When certain players weren’t playing particularly the freshmen people complained. When she plays the freshmen people still complain. IMO the rotation should be shortened with seven to eight players getting the playing time. But some people will have a problem with that and continue to talk about how certain players particularly the freshmen aren’t getting playing time.
     
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    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  4. brnkj

    brnkj 2,500+ Posts

    Once again you totally missed the point... perhaps you need to take a remedial reading class? I won't even waste my time and energy breaking it down in short-bus terms for your understanding.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  5. kurupt

    kurupt 1,000+ Posts

    Whatever your point is/was doesn’t matter because Coach Aston’s substitution pattern just beat the #9 team in the country by a comfortable margin.
     
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  6. brnkj

    brnkj 2,500+ Posts

    Yes, and hopefully they will hold up against teams like Baylor and UConn. By the way, sub patterns were slightly different today.:tap:
     
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  7. DINO22

    DINO22 1,000+ Posts

    It will eventually get down to 10 player's playing.
    Just be patient.
     
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  8. WCBBNUT

    WCBBNUT 2,500+ Posts

    Agree. I thought the same thing about the sub pattern today. And, while I don’t like the rotating door, I actually really appreciate that Karen has mentioned on more than one occasion that she didn’t do a good job subbing. I think it will all work itself out.

    Interesting note however : A&M’s top ranked freshman guard just scored 36 pts against #4 South Carolina while our’s got 6 mins and 3 pts. against #9 West Virginia
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2017
  9. JoeDallas

    JoeDallas 1,000+ Posts

    I do agree with brnkj. If you put someone in, let them stay long enough to get grooved in. Sometimes people go in so briefly that they don't ever even touch the ball. Having this much depth, as great as it is, is also a conundrum. A lot of great players came here, and they all deserve a chance for some decent minutes. I do think if someone is playing super well and is on a roll, you don't take them out until they cool off, get obviously tired, or make such a blunder that a teaching point needs to be made. The thing that drives me the craziest is when someone is hitting very well and just playing great, and suddenly have to go out. (As I mentioned in another thread, I always thought Jody did this, too.)
     
  10. JoeDallas

    JoeDallas 1,000+ Posts

    It is an interesting question. Chennedy Carter is practically a one-woman team. Is she like 50 times better than Patterson, or is it more a difference in depth and/or philosophy? I wonder how much Carter would be playing here. I doubt very much anything like she is at A&M. I think I would go with the deep team over the one-man show, and I think we will beat the Aggies if we meet them down the road.
     
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  11. kurupt

    kurupt 1,000+ Posts

    One freshman has the reigning conf. player of the year in front of her. And another all conference guard in Ariel and a really good player in Lashann also in front of her. The other freshman guard doesn’t, which is why her team isn’t very good.
     
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  12. kurupt

    kurupt 1,000+ Posts

    The only way a player “deserves” to get playing time is by earning it. And like I said in the early post, some of you need to make up your mind.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  13. TXSNOS

    TXSNOS 1,000+ Posts

    But did you see how many shots Carter took in relation to her teammates? I didn't see that game but wonder if that was due to her trying to do it all or if the rest of the team was just flat.
     
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  14. WCBBNUT

    WCBBNUT 2,500+ Posts

    But then imagine how boring this board would be?
     
  15. WCBBNUT

    WCBBNUT 2,500+ Posts

    Well that not very good team took the defending National Champions and the current #4 team in the nation into the final 10 seconds tied. They lost by two points. That freshman has managed to find a way to replicate at the college level what she did in high school which is pretty impressive.

    I don’t necessarily think I am making a point one way or the other. It just seems like we have some extremely talented freshman who aren’t getting many minutes. Is that the curse of too many talented players or is it something else? For goodness sakes, we have a girl from California who holds the record for most points scored by player in the history of the HS girl’s game in that state. I think she’s made one maybe two baskets this season. How does that happen? Maybe it doesn’t matter or mean anything, but I find it interesting.
     
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  16. LutherIsMyDog

    LutherIsMyDog 1,000+ Posts

    WCBB--I respect your opinion as I believe that you probably know more about "X's and O's" than I do. Although I was disappointed that our Freshman did not get any minutes during the Tennessee game, I haven't had too many complaints about the playing time for our Freshman. Sug and Jada need minutes as we will need them down the stretch in Big 12 play. IMO Rellah has worked her way up the chain and will be one of the first off the bench to sub for Jatarie or AAG. So I'm not sure whose minutes Chaz and Destiny should be getting. We have the luxury of players sitting on the bench who would be starting for other teams. It's a blessing and a curse.

    If all goes according to plan, Rellah, Chaz and Destiny will get major minutes starting next year. Although it may be frustrating for the players and the fans to see Freshman for other teams to be receiving accolades, I believe our group will have their turn in the spotlight over the next three years.
     
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  17. LutherIsMyDog

    LutherIsMyDog 1,000+ Posts

    As a follow-up to my post, Chaz "liked" this tweet on Twitter.

     
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  18. kurupt

    kurupt 1,000+ Posts

    And a&m still isn’t very good. And again, when a player has really good experienced players in front of them at their position they’re not going to get much playing time. Wouldn’t you want your best most experienced players on the floor as much as possible? In the 80’s when Texas was a powerhouse you don’t think players like Fran Harris didn’t have to wait her turn because she had more experienced talented players in front of her.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
  19. DFW_Horn

    DFW_Horn 2,500+ Posts

    Chasity has said repeatedly that she doesn’t expect a great deal of playing time and that her biggest opportunity this season is to learn from Brooke. Also, Karen Aston has always been honest and up front (almost brutally at times) about her aversion to giving freshmen a lot of minutes except when there isn’t an alternative.
     
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  20. WCBBNUT

    WCBBNUT 2,500+ Posts

    I still wouldn’t say they are not very good but I agree their freshman had to play a key role out of necessity. If you watch the WV post game presser, Karen talks about this in response to media questions about this topic so I guess I’m not the only one curious about it. Not complaining, mind you, just curious.
     
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  21. chuckhorn

    chuckhorn 25+ Posts

    I would have to agree. Astons substitution patterns have puzzled me for sometime now. I for one have said we needed to give the freshman a little more of a chance. I would like to have our key players out there with a freshman or two in the line up so they can get real time experience of what it would be like playing in a tight game. When I see teams like UConn or Baylor play, I don't care the score or quarter their key players are in the game getting game to experience in playing with each other and getting comfortable. For us after a quarter and a half we through the bench in and it just looks like a pick up game at the rec. I believe that is why we have always had a problem with our turnovers. No one set of 5 players gets a real good length of time to gel and mesh with one another.
     
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  22. Moooooo

    Moooooo 5,000+ Posts

    I'm kind of in the middle as far as what we've seen so far when it comes to playing time, and substitution patterns. But, not sure those things are one and the same. And, just checking the minutes played doesn't always tell the true story.

    When it comes to determining playing time (perhaps based on practice habits), I think Coach A goes into the game knowing which bench players she "wants to reward". I recall prior to one game, the TV cameras zoomed in on Destiny Littleton sitting close to Coach A on the bench. Sure enough, she was one of the first players subbed in, and she received plenty of minutes in that game. Prior to another game, the TV announcer commented that Coach A had told her that Chasity Patterson would be getting more minutes that game based on how well she had practiced; don't think it happened as the game unfolded.

    As far as substitutions, that is determined by what happens in the actual game.

    - If a player gets into early foul trouble, they are coming out. And, they might end up sitting a lot more than expected based on how early the got into foul trouble.

    - If a player looks winded or gets dinged up a bit, they are coming out. But, it might be for a short spell, as they might be needed back on the court sooner rather than later.

    - If a player is constantly getting beat on defense, or the opponent's lineup on the court is causing mismatches, someone is getting pulled for a better matchup.

    - If someone's shots just aren't falling, they are probably coming out of game to regain their focus.

    - If the opponent's defense is causing our lineup on the floor problems, then player combinations get adjusted accordingly.

    Yes, sometimes players get pulled quickly when theu make a mistake; but, not all mistakes are created equally. If Coach A tells Rellah Boothe to get in the paint and rebound and bank shots of the glass, but instead she is floating on the perimeter and take quick 3-point shots, she will get yanked for not following instructions.

    During non-conference play, there were plenty of times when I thought our freshmen should have been inserted earlier in the game or for longer stretches based on the lead in the game. A perfect example was at Georgia. We were up 20+ points for most of the second half, yet the freshmen didn't get to play until around 3 minutes left in the game. Then, in the game at Tennessee, they didn't get any playing time at all. To me, the lack of experience they got at Georgia translated into no minutes at a tougher game in Knoxville. Coach A did admit her mistake a few days after the Tennessee loss.

    Lastly, and I know I'm guilty of this, no matter how talented our bench players, we can't always expect them to come into a game and be effective; it's just not realistic.
     
  23. brnkj

    brnkj 2,500+ Posts

    I still say yanking players in and out every couple of minutes creates mass chaos and disrupts flow. At some point you have to allow players to play through mistakes and arrive at some level of comfort. Right now I'd be way more concerned with leaving Holmes and Boothe in for as long as their bodies allow in order to get them comfortable and meshed with the team than I would be anything else. The rotation is naturally going to shorten.. no doubt... but those two WE'RE GOING TO NEED down the stretch.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  24. Moooooo

    Moooooo 5,000+ Posts

    But, since you don't know Coach A's rationale for her substitutions, perhaps the mass chaos is only in your head.

    Not even the best coaches in history have a perfect hit ratio when it comes to the substitutions they make.
     
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  25. brnkj

    brnkj 2,500+ Posts

    Maybe so... but if that's the case then I guess it's just highly coincidental that our play tends to get raggedy as hell once all the revolving doors open. If, by chance, Aston's "rationale" for yanking players is for what it seems to be (punishment for mistakes) then I stand by my opinion that at some point you've got to let players play through some of those mistakes, get comfortable, and build a little confidence and stop playing tentatively. Hey... I love what KA has done with this program and I certainly wouldn't want her to leave, but that yanking in and out I just don't agree with and that's my right to have my own opinion. You defend her as though she were your family member. It's really not that serious because despite my opinion, yours, or anyone else's she is the coach who has done an incredible job so far and I doubt seriously she gives half a damn about our opinions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  26. Moooooo

    Moooooo 5,000+ Posts

    Of course, we are all just stating opinions. And, Coach A has plenty to learn as a relatively new, young head coach. I am definitely critical of some of her decisions, and I have stated so on this forum many times.

    All I'm trying to convey is that I don't know for sure what the substitution "pattern" is. Maybe there is no "pattern". She most likely goes into each game knowing that she wants to reward some bench players with playing time based on their effort/improvement in practice; and, she makes on-the-fly substitutions based on what is transpiring in the actual game. If you pay attention to the bench and how close/far the players sit from the coaches, you can basically see the pecking order for which players will be entering the game when a sub is needed; and, it changes with each game.

    I don't always expect all bench players inserted into the game to mesh seamlessly with the original starters still on the floor. And, once all starters are on the bench, I don't expect the subs on the floor to play as well as the starters. So, some "ragged" play is par for the course, IMO.

    And, yes, mistakes/fouls by subs are going to occur on the floor (just like they do by starters). As it pertains to starters, I am one who believes that if a starter picks up a quick foul, it might be best to pull them out just to avoid picking up a second foul too quickly; that doesn't mean they need to sit on the bench for the entire half; but, it gives them a few minutes to calm down and hopefully re-enter the game soon. Pulling subs for picking up quick fouls is dependent on how much time remains in the game, and the score.

    And, personally, in a blowout type of game, I don't want our starters on the court longer than necessary as there's always a chance for injury. So, in those type of games, more "ragged" play would be occurring based on having so many bench players on the court at the same time.

    I'd love for our program to be at a point where we can claim that we have 5 bench players who are almost as good as all 5 starters; don't think we're there yet.
     
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  27. WCBBNUT

    WCBBNUT 2,500+ Posts

    I keep applying for the job, but Karen hasn’t stepped aside. Guess it’s time for me to admit that she is the better coach. :lol:
     
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  28. brnkj

    brnkj 2,500+ Posts

    Agreed! We're all just fans that want our team to do its best at the end of the day... we're not going to see eye-to-eye on everything. I'll say this though, very few - if any - could've done the job that KA has done so far.
     
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  29. JoeDallas

    JoeDallas 1,000+ Posts

    I found the above discussion very interesting and don't see much disagreement. Mooooo gave an excellent analysis of what probably guides Karen's subbing. I agree, as most of us seem to, that she didn't play the freshmen enough against Georgia or Tennessee (for different reasons), and maybe also for some of the "easy" games. I agree with brnkj about too much yanking. If they go in, let them stay long enough to get settled with the other players and get the feel of the game. I'm not sure if I agree about using Joyner and Rellah the most in the post. Maybe. Depends on how Joyner comes around. Jatarie has been playing really well, and Audrey, too, for that matter. That's a tough call who to play in the frontcourt. I sure hope Rellah gets her minutes. So far, she seems like a better shooter than Joyner and maybe just as good a rebounder. I love her soft hands, passing skills, and quickness. But she sure can't get down the court as well as Joyner. Ah, the problems of so many riches.
     
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  30. brnkj

    brnkj 2,500+ Posts

    I apologize if I came across as minimizing the efforts of Jatarie and Audrey, because that certainly wasn't the case. Jatarie has gotten more and more comfortable and has been very solid for us... Audrey has been Audrey... in on all the hustle plays and doing so many important things that don't necessarily show up in box scores. My comment about playing Joyner and Rellah until they tire out is to get them comfortable and conditioned because we'll need their skills in our front court depth when March rolls around (before then against teams like UConn and Baylor).
     
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