Texas - Purdue: Who's going?

Discussion in 'Men’s Basketball' started by VulcanHorn, Dec 9, 2018.

  1. VulcanHorn

    VulcanHorn 100+ Posts

    <crickets chirping>
    Oh, that's what I thought.

    Hoping for a better crowd today. So embarrassing to see all those empty seats on national TV.
  2. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

  3. Walking Boss

    Walking Boss 1,000+ Posts

    Typical Shaka team. Shoot well in the first half but only a five point lead because can’t take care of the ball. Start the second half with at least two short shot misses and now down two. Looks like they are headed for another prolonged scoring drought.
  4. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    There must have been some serious marching orders for the guards to take better shots and "be" the offense, because outside of Hayes, the bigs didn't do much tonight.

    Coleman was what I thought Coleman would be coming in when he committed 2 years ago. If we got more performances like that out of him, I can see why Duke wanted him so badly.

    Still... way too close of a game against an outmatched, out-talented Purdue team. If Purdue had our players, I'd wager they would have won by 10-15 points.
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  5. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

  6. VulcanHorn

    VulcanHorn 100+ Posts

    Purdue is a one-man team. Edwards had 40? The rest of the team didn't do much. They would be scary if they had even one more scorer. Horns played better but still felt they should have won this one more easily.

    Kudos to the Purdue fans. Damn, they travel well. I bet they outnumbered the Horn fans in the stands. Impressive.

    FWHORN 5,000+ Posts

    Hard to get too high over a nice win because even in the win you see the issues that will plague this team all year long. Smart reminds me of Penders but Texas didnt need a Penders after Barnes it needed the younger Barnes motivated to take a team to the next level (kind of what Tennessee now has in a remotivated Barnes).
  8. Htown77

    Htown77 5,000+ Posts

    I do not think Barnes ever had a motivation issue.

    DKR had a streak of 6-4, 7-4 and 6-4 from 65-67. He followed that up with two national championships.

    I think Barnes was simply in a bad luck streak.

    Following the Elite 8 in 08-09, Barnes rebuilt and his 2010-11 team went 28-8. Unfortunately, we got a bad draw in the NCAA tournament in the second round and faced an elite 8 Arizona team (which only lost by 2 to the national champion UConn Huskies). Bad luck happens (and Barnes suffered it again last year by drawing final four team Loyola-Chicago in the second round). If you win a lot of games and get a higher seed, you are not supposed to face elite 8 or final four caliber teams in the first two rounds.

    During the next rebuilding cycle, Barnes had a lot of misses in recruiting which led to his only losing season. It is not that the players were bad, it is that they did not fit and work as a team under the Barnes system. Recruiting misses happen even to Bill Self. The problem is, Barnes had the misfortune of a ton happening together. Fans (in the midst of an idiotic “Brown, Barnes and Augue have all lost it and all suck” phase) misinterpreted this as “Barnes has lost it.” A lot of criticisms leveled against Barnes were the same as ones made against Brown and Augie even though they did not make sense with Barnes.

    He learned from his mistakes, and rebuilt again. With a new group, he actually won 24 games and made the second round of the NCAA Tournament. The next year, Isaiah Taylor got hurt and the entire season was derailed. Instead of realizing that Barnes was indeed rebuilding again and the season was derailed due to a key injury, our fans quickly and stupidly reacted by demanding his head. That class seems to have been snake bit as Ridley was hurt the next year which, in fairness to Shaka, derailed that season as well. I’ll also note Myles Turner was not the impact player everyone would thought he would be. He had talent, but it was too raw to be effective in a one and done situation.

    Barnes never lost it. He had a bad tournament draw in 2011. He then had a recruiting misfire. Finally, when he did rebuild us back to normal good teams, his team suffered a key injury.

    We prematuraly dumped him for someone not as good and are now in a worse place. He took over a worse Tennessee program and has them as a national contender.

    You are correct we needed another Barnes and not a worse form of Penders basketball. Yes, we’ll upset teams like UNC and Purdue. However, we’ll lose to VCUs and Radfords and never string together enough games shooting 50% to really contend for anything. Firing Barnes and hiring Smart may have been the worst move in Texas sports history.
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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  9. Run Pincher

    Run Pincher 1,000+ Posts

    Yep. I've been saying the same thing only to be criticized that Barnes was stale and needed to go. I completely disagree with that. He had a streak of bad luck and was a victim of his own success with 1 and dones. I can't think of a worse coaching change in all my years of following Longhorn sports than this one. Even worse than Charlie Strong for Mack Brown.
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  10. ViperHorn

    ViperHorn 5,000+ Posts

    Unfortuntionaly no. Hiring Strong was worse.
  11. Htown77

    Htown77 5,000+ Posts

    It is an interesting debate. Shaka Smart is a much better coach than Charlie Strong. He has at least made the NCAA Tournament twice. Overall, he also recruits better.

    That said, the reason I believe the Barnes fire was worse is that I think Barnes meant more to Texas basketball than Mack Brown did to Texas football. While Strong set us back big time, Texas football can recover a lot quicker than basketball. We also know with football that we will eventually find a coach that can compete for national titles again. With basketball, I do not know if we will find someone that can win like Barnes did here again... or if we do, it may take going through a lot of coaches. Maybe I am wrong and the next coach will exceed Barnes, but I am just not sure if or when we will be true, consistent national contenders again in basketball. Mack was the second greatest coach in Texas history. DKR won more than him and other coaches had great success here. Barnes, however, was the greatest basketball coach we ever had and no one ever came close to his consistent success.

    I will note our basketball program seems to shoot itself in the foot. Firing Abe Lemmons for Kaiser Bob was a massive mistake. Firing Penders appeared unwise, but in retrospect looked brilliant with the Barnes hire. Then we go back to shooting ourselves in the foot with the Shaka hire. Firing three successful coaches, Lemmons, Penders and Barnes, looks pretty bad for a program that really is not all that successful. Hate to say it, but our basketball coaching management is strangely similar to historical aggy football coaching management in how poor quality it has been.
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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  12. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    I think hiring a BB coach that could match Barnes' success is very possible. BU has done it; it appears TTU is on the verge of it, KSU has one; OU has done it periodically, TCU is on the verge of it; WVU has one, of course KU always has one.

    It takes the will, and the money, to do this; a little luck and someone to help with the coach search who knows BB and can consult the right people to help make the right choice.

    The decision has been made to spend the $$. Now the search factors, putting the right people on the search committee who know enough to evaluate the potential coaches, is the next step.
  13. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    I'll see your bet and raise you one Lemons/Weltlich.
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  14. Htown77

    Htown77 5,000+ Posts

    The fact there have been two such terrible fires within the same program (and a different hire would probably have put the Penders fire in the same boat) really demonstrates how poorly managed our basketball coaching hiring/firing has been.

    Any hope for this program in the future? @SabreHorn
  15. caryhorn

    caryhorn 5,000+ Posts

    After watching the replay, i think we were fortunate to win the game. With Edwards, we saw an elite shooter. Something we have not had in Austin since Kevin Durant. If we had Edwards, this team would be undefeated now. Seriously.
  16. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 5,000+ Posts

    Barnes lost 14, 18, 11 and 14 in his final four seasons. In his last 7 years only once did he end with single digit losses. I always thought he was a really good coach but lost his mojo here.

    It was not bad luck as to why he had so many mediocre seasons, it was the inability to problem solve and coach the team to rise above. Maybe it was motivation, maybe walking into the same arena for so many years, I dont know. If he were still here I believe he would still be losing 12-15 games a year so it was time for him to go. The day Tennessee hired him I posted here it was a great hire for Tennessee because I felt he could get their program turned around and I was right. He was past doing that again here. Shaka was never the answer in my opinion, but I was willing to give him a chance since I didnt really have a choice.
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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  17. SAMMCHornfan

    SAMMCHornfan 250+ Posts

    Nah, replacing Abe Lemons with Kaiser Bob was much worse IMHO.
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  18. beijinghorn1

    beijinghorn1 250+ Posts

    Whatever happened to entertaining basketball in college? Paul Westhead, the Shark, Penders, Richardson, etc... had teams playing very entertaining basketball. I suspect the purest here will say that it is not "good" basketball... However, I will say it is entertaining. I think Barnes biggest problem at Texas is that his teams were nearly unwatchable as they were so boring. TJ Ford years being the exception in my opinion. I honestly thought Shaka was bringing high energy entertaining basketball back, but I was wrong in a big way. We need Phi Slama Jama easily the most entertaining college basketball team ever in my opinion. Unfortunately it was UH.
  19. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 5,000+ Posts

    Winning basketball is always entertaining. Losing 14 or 15 games a year is pretty boring.
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  20. ViperHorn

    ViperHorn 5,000+ Posts

    The reason I say Strong is his inability to coach on this level cost real money in falling attendance and fewer Tier 1 games on national TV. Football drives the money train.
  21. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    Football can also recover faster with wins than basketball, though. Look at the USC, TCU, and ISU home games from this season to show what winning does to a crowd for football. If we beat UNC in basketball, would the Erwin crowd even get a blip larger for the next game? Oh wait, we did beat UNC in basketball.

    I struggle a lot with the "Barnes put us back on the map" part of my brain with the "Barnes didn't understand situational basketball at big moments" part of my brain. I can prattle off a bunch of important games where Barnes just didn't have control of the team and they blew it... his first NCAA tournament game (Purdue) to his last NCAA tournament game (Butler) for us. The LSU Elite-8 OT loss. The Wake Forest first round loss. The Arizona second round loss. Games that could have put us in an even better standing on the bball scene, but kind of threw us back to square one with new one-and-dones the following seasons.

    His style didn't help either. The way he misused Myles Turner to the point of him basically shutting down his season to prepare for the NBA Draft gave a lot of recruiting fuel to other schools - "Barnes wants you to play out of position because that style helped him win games 12 years ago." That doesn't bode well for the elite talent. And even though Bill Simmons is full of hot air, he was spot-on in his analysis of how we misused Durant in the USC NCAA tournament game.

    If we're ok with just making the tournament, then Barnes is fantastic. I guess we should temper our expectations if that's as good as it's going to get.
  22. Htown77

    Htown77 5,000+ Posts

    Rick Barnes accounts for our only final four since 1947 and the only final four any Texas school has made since 1984 (which was not yesterday).

    Rick Barnes accounts for 3 of our 7 elite 8s.

    Rick Barnes accounts for 5 of our 10 sweet 16s.

    Rick Barnes accounts for 10 of our 18 appearances in the Second Round.

    Rick Barnes’ 3 Big 12 Regular Season basketball titles is the still more than any non-Kansas Big 12 coach or program.

    Before Rick Barnes, Texas produced 12 NBA players. Rick Barnes produced 19 NBA players.

    Rick Barnes is the only reason we were even on the map. He massively upgraded our talent. He won like no other coach has.

    You are focussing on the negatives, which I mean, someone could do with Coach K or Bill Self if they really wanted. However, the negatives attributable to Barnes are far outweighed by the rest of Texas basketball. Barnes is gone. We are worse off. The place he went is better off and now in better shape. Firing him was dumb.

    If he was so bad, why has no one else at UT done any better? Why has no school in this state made a final four in the past 30 years other than the one coached by Rick Barnes?
    • Like Like x 3
  23. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 5,000+ Posts

    You are absolutely 100% correct in what Rick achieved here compared to others. No one can take that away from him and I thank him for that.

    But dont confuse what he achieved with where the program was when he left....mediocre and under achieving. I had zero faith that he had it in him to get back to elite basketball at Texas. He just seemed tired and lost in pressers. Sometimes leaders need a change to freshen up their perspective and refocus and I truly believed that's what Rick needed. It was time.
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  24. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    I fully agree that no Texas coach has done better than Barnes. Hence, the "temper your expectations" comment on my part. That doesn't free him from the valid criticisms.

    We don't have the clout of a school to hire someone like Coack K or Bill Self. What we do have is a ton of money, a new arena being built in the next 5-10 years, and a talent base in Texas that tends to flee to other conferences because of the uncertainties around our program.
  25. Htown77

    Htown77 5,000+ Posts

    Unfortunately, if we build a smaller arena, it will almost certainly hurt our program. The main problem we face is most of the seats around the court go to corporations/companies who actually have people show up for 4 games total. The students are jammed behind the basket, have a generally bad deal for seats (when I was recently a student, I just bought public tickets and did not even bother with the student ticket system except for November games) which causes them to stop coming to all but half the games.

    The people that do show up tend to get tickets in the upper deck.

    UT is not going to stop selling the primo tickets to corporations and is not going to stop giving the students a bad deal. A smaller arena will still mean empty seats around the court and even less tickets for the people that show up. The disaster that is our crowds will be even worse. I honestly do not understand why people think a smaller arena will help anything. UT mismangement is the problem, not the drum itself.

    I expect the new arena and worse crowds to make the next coach’s job harder. No idea why UT felt the need to jam its medical school into downtown Austin.
  26. LonghornMD

    LonghornMD 100+ Posts

    Amen. Well said.
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  27. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 5,000+ Posts

    I think the idea is that over time a smaller arena will create more demand and a better environment overall when people do show up. Right now you can get a $5 ticket for just about any game this year and fans really don't have to worry if seats will be available or not so if it's convenient fans show up if not then what's the big deal. However everyone wants what they can't get. Just look at crappy toys at Christmas time when something gets hot people fight and steal to get that for their little Johnny or Jane. If tickets become hard to get those corporate seats will be full too.

    The bottom line is that with a bad team on the court any arena will be empty. Start winning and they will come. I personally think smaller arenas provide a better in game feel and experience and that the FECes is a soul less piece of crap.
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  28. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 5,000+ Posts

    Do you remember the Abe debacle? Abe was fired and then we offered anyone that would talk to us. How many turned us down? The "We're Texas" didn't work, and the whole world was laughing. It was so bad that I told Deloss, ""Hire somebody, anybody, the junior high coach at Pfluegerville, just somebody that doesn't say NO". Hence, I never felt I had the right to complain about Weltlich.
  29. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    To be fair, when Deloss was looking for Lemons' replacement, Deloss had not become the Deloss of later years. I believe he was still learning on the job himself. I would submit as further evidence the hires of McWilliams (love the man, but he wasn't cut out for head coach here) and Mackovic (despise the man, also wasn't cut out to be head coach here).

    When the next round of big hires came up, he was either incredibly lucky (Brown, Garrido, Barnes) or had grown into the extremely competent AD we all remember. I believe it was the latter.
  30. blonthang

    blonthang 2,500+ Posts

    Abe and DeLoss were oil and water.

    My recollection of two Abe quotes as the head butting between these two reached a high point:

    "What did he do before becoming an AD? He was a track coach. How hard is that --- 'Hey kid, when you hear the starting gun take off running and get back here as fast as you can.' "

    "I'm going to buy a glass-bottomed car so I can see DeLoss' face as I run over him."

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