The First 100 days

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by theiioftx, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Not a peaceful resistance...

    Palestinian protestors create "fake news"

    My favorite of the day:

    I'm done with Seattle. He's gone off the rails and has now decided to hurl insults instead of actually engaging.
  2. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    This summed it up in many ways for me. The left is absolutely intent on the idea that if you're going up against a superior force like this, it must be for noble reasons. It can never be the result of a culture of absolute hate and an environment of hopelessness created by a leadership that is willing to use its population as human shields, even bombing its own supply lines in order to keep the people deprived, angry, and victimized.

    They must be noble. They fake deaths. They teach young mothers with infants to stand with their child near teargas so that when the child dies they can celebrate the child as a martyr. They set tire fires and send overwhelmed youngsters to try and cut through the fence with the aim of getting in and causing as much harm as possible, knowing that the youths will likely be wounded or killed in the attempt to wound or kill Jews.
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  3. Garmel

    Garmel 1,000+ Posts

    Husker is a case study on just how dangerous the mainstream media is. The way the left and the media have become Hamas stooges without even knowing it is mind numbing.
  4. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

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  5. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 5,000+ Posts

    Palestinians are getting more and more desperate based on their turn away from the PLO towards Hamas. Same for the Israelis. Both sides won't fare well on their current trajectory.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 5,000+ Posts

    Insults? Fotunately none of the conservative posters do that here. Clearly they are only intent on "engaging".

    Your "favorite tweet" diminished the Israeli role as the "neighbor". How pissed would you be at your neighbor if they knocked down your house, took your land for an Israeli settlement then stood by while your family starved. I'm sure you'd simply grin and bear it. Maybe lift yourself up to improve your lot in life and cherish your handful of hours of electricity a day?

    Hamas is anything but noble. They are a terrorist organization but if you think anyone would sit idly by and accept the treatment of Israel then you might want to spend more time attempting to put yourselves in their shoes.

    Some may want to accelerate their end times but the rest of us need to live here long after you've been judged.
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    Last edited: May 15, 2018
  7. VYFan

    VYFan 2,500+ Posts

    Aren't the settlements just in-fills of vacant (BTW desert) land within the territory that Israel has claimed and basically owned for 50 or 60 years, since the Arabs attacked them? It's only claiming "new" territory for those who never have acknowledged the reality that the borders changed back then. I think that's right. Not during any of our adult lives have Palestinian houses in Palestinian been knocked down to be replaced by Jewish settlements to expand their territory--isn't that right? If not, I'm sure I'll hear.

    Incidentally, and I hope this is a given that you know, but there are lots and lots of Arabs who live in Israel. They are Israeli citizens, they vote, they dominate certain areas, they have mosques in almost every corner of Israel that ring out the Muslim call to prayer every day. They are perfectly allowed to be there.
  8. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    Since the total destruction of Israel is the goal of Hamas, it is good that you support Israel in this matter. Until that often stated goal and the actions of Hamas change, the Palestinians have little hope of improving their situation.
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  9. Phil Elliott

    Phil Elliott 1,000+ Posts

    Yes I already knew that but you are right to point it out, because a lot of people don't know it. I didn't until just last year when I learned it in my Sunday School class when we were studying about the Dome of the Rock shrine, which was built by Muslims.
  10. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    They openly go into houses, kick Palestinian families out and say “jewish families live here now.” They do not even keep it secret. It has been vastly reported on by a spectrum of outlets for years now.

    I have no idea how the people kicked out of their houses are ever going to want anything but the destruction of Israel. That practice creates a lot more hate than Hamas ever will.

    My point is I understand both sides are part of the problem and both sides are creating hate, fear, etc.
  11. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 5,000+ Posts

    I might just piss everybody off at me, but I've already been called a Nazi for taking the side of Jews in another thread, so I can't really go anywhere but up. I don't think anybody in this is right.

    Moving the embassy is a stupid move. Nobody has been able to explain why this is smart for US policy or interests or why it's anything more than symbolic virtue signaling. It does not significantly improve our relations with any country. It is not safer for our personnel. In fact, it's almost surely more dangerous for them. Yes, it's true that Israel has the right to choose its capitol, but that doesn't make it a good idea to move our embassy when Israel is clearly willing to have diplomatic relations from Tel Aviv.

    Having said that, defending these Palestinian rioters is foolish too. From what I've seen and read, there were about 49,000 people. Some were peaceful, but many tried to breach border fences, deployed fire starting devices, burned tires, and used explosive devices. That's not peaceful protest. It's violence, and it doesn't matter that they were too incompetent to actually hurt anybody. A forceful response was in order, even if it meant a small percentage ended up being killed. As I've indicated with respect to police interactions in the US, once you get physical, law enforcement has a right to get physical with you. If you deploy incendiary devices and explosives, that physical force might get deadly.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

  13. Phil Elliott

    Phil Elliott 1,000+ Posts

    It says that our relationship with Israel is most-important to us. I like that signal.
  14. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Per Hamas - 50 of 62 dead were Hamas members. But hey, it was "kill at will" so let's stay angry...
  15. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    My response would be that many of the issues in the Palestinian/Israeli issue (IMO) stem from an undying hope that at some point, the world will finally boot Israel out and let the Palestinians "reclaim" their land. They talk about this all the time. Hamas leaders framed the "protests" in the idea of reoccupying and taking back/driving out the Jews. As long as they could hold onto the idea that the world doesn't REALLY believe Jerusalem is the capital, then they have a shot. The fact that we've traditionally acknowledged it was the capital but refused to treat it as such shows ambivalence, and an unwillingness to commit to the concept of Israel's right to their own sovereignty. I believe that in the end, this will set a much more realistic basis for discussions - Jerusalem's not going anywhere. You're not getting it. Deal with it.

    The only reason for not doing it has been to enable delusions of an entire region of nations. Every president in the modern era has said Jerusalem is the capital, but none have been willing to actually treat it as such. I think that sends an important message, and yes, many aren't going to like it.
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  16. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    Just to pick these two sentences out of the whole, let me explain what I see.
    1) Israel and the USA have been the strongest of allies since the re-founding of the country.
    2) Isreali/US relations took a serious nosedive while Barry Hussein was in office, with Barry going so far as to directly insult Netanyahu on multiple occasions (kitchen entrance to the White House, openly campaigning against him, etc).
    3) The move of the Embassy was probably never a major point of contention between our countries, but it most definitely symbolically improves and re-cements our relationship with Israel after all the giant dumps Barry Hussein took on it.
    4) Echoing what Prodigal said above about ending ambivalent signalling, thus providing a different framework for any future talks.
  17. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    I do not remember the U.K. or Australia sinking a U.S. warship since WW2, but maybe I am mistaken.
  18. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    ^ further with the above:

    I do not know anything about Middle East Eye, but the article is a concise summary of the BBC reports I have seen the past 10 years about how Israel has been selling advanced drone technology (including US technology) to Russia.

    Israel is for Israel first. Are they a better ally than anyone else in the Middle East? For sure.
    Are they better than the U.K., Australia and others? Not really.
  19. Garmel

    Garmel 1,000+ Posts

  20. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 5,000+ Posts

    Netanyahu was upset that the tail didn't wag the dog, specifically when Obama wanted to curtail settlements and Netanyahu would have none of it. The insults happened on both sides. The continued claim that the deterioration in the relationship was one-sided is biased, at a minimum.

    Statement vs. execution. We could state it without causing any problem. In the end, it was a message to Israel that we support you without giving the middle finger to the rest of the world. Now we've done the latter which moved out position from being an honest broker in any peace settlement to saying "we're with Israel...**** the Palestinians". Great...we've strengthened our relationship with Israel and lessened out leadership in any move towards peace. Maybe we'll be fortunate and someone else in the world can lead. That's not us in Israel, now.
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  21. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 1,000+ Posts

    You mean the odds of getting Israel and Palestine to be buddies has somehow gone from "it isn't going to happen" to "it really isn't going to happen". Tisk, tisk, what a loss.
  22. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    Criticism accepted. I should have stipulated Israel is our best Middle Eastern ally.
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  23. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    From Dershowitz, a Jew, and a left leaning law professor, with a critique of the media coverage of the recent kerfuffle in Israel.
    If this were the first time that Hamas deliberately provoked Israel into self-defense actions that resulted in the unintended deaths of Gaza civilians, the media could be excused for playing into the hands of Hamas. The most recent Hamas provocations — having 40,000 Gazans try to tear down the border fence and enter Israel with Molotov cocktails and other improvised weapons — are part of a repeated Hamas tactic that I have called the “dead baby strategy.” Hamas’ goal is to have Israel kill as many Gazans as possible so that the headlines always begin, and often end, with the body count. Hamas deliberately sends women and children to the front line, while their own fighters hide behind these human shields.

    Hamas leaders have long acknowledged this tactic. Fathi Hammad, a Hamas Member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, stated as far back as 2008:

    “For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: ‘we desire death like you desire life.’”

    Hamas used this tactic to provoke two wars with Israel in which their fighters fired rockets from civilian areas, including hospitals, schools, and Mosques. When Israel responded, it tried its best to avoid civilian casualties, dropping warning leaflets, calling residents of potential targets and dropping non-lethal noise bombs on the roofs of houses that were being used to launch rockets and store explosives. Inevitably, some civilians were killed, and the media blamed Israel for these deaths, despite the precautions it had taken.

    The same was true when Hamas built terror tunnels used to kidnap Israeli civilians. The entrances to these tunnels were in civilian areas as well, including mosques and schools. Using their own civilians as human shields, while targeting Israeli civilians, is a double war crime. Yet, the media generally focuses on Israel’s reaction to these war crimes, rather than Hamas’ war crimes.

    The cruel reality is that every time Israel accidentally kills a Gaza civilian, Israel loses. And every time Israel kills a Gaza civilian, Hamas wins. Israelis grieve every civilian death its army accidentally causes. Hamas benefits from every death Israel accidentally causes. That is why it encourages its women and children to become martyrs.

    Calling this the “dead baby strategy” may seem cruel, because it is cruel. But don’t blame the messenger for accurately describing this tactic. Blame those who cynically use it. And blame the media for playing into the hands of those who use it by reporting only the body count and not the deliberate Hamas tactic that leads to one sided body counts.

    It is true that Gaza is in a desperate situation and that it is wounded. But the wound itself is self-inflicted. When Israel ended its occupation of the Gaza — removing every single soldier and settler — Gaza could have become the Singapore on the Mediterranean. It is a beautiful area with a large seacoast. It received infusions of cash and other help from Europe. Israel left behind agricultural equipment and hot houses. But instead of using these resources to feed, house, and educate its citizens, Hamas built rockets, terror tunnels and Molotov cocktails. It threw dissenters off the roof and murdered members of the Palestinian Authority who were willing to recognize Israel and negotiate with it.
    Hamas rejects the two-state solution or any solution that leaves Israel intact. Its only solution is violence, and the events at the fence these past days are a manifestation of that violence. Would any country in the world allow 40,000 people, sworn to its destruction, knock down a border fence and attack its citizens living peacefully near the border? Of course not. Could Israel have done more to reduce casualties among those trying to breach the border fence? I don’t know, and neither do the legions of arm chair generals that are currently criticizing Israel for the steps it took to prevent a catastrophe among the residents of Kibbutzin and towns that are proximate to the border fence.

    One thing is crystal clear: Hamas will continue to use the dead baby strategy as long as the media continues to report the deaths in the manner in which it has reported them in recent weeks. Many in the media are complicit in these deaths because their one-sided reporting encourages Hamas to send innocent women and children to the front line.

    Perhaps Israel could do a better job in defending its civilians but it is certain that the media can do a better job in accurately reporting the Hamas strategy that results in so many innocent deaths.

    There is a marvelous cartoon that illustrates the difference between Hamas and Israel. It shows an Israeli soldier standing in front of a baby carriage with a baby in it, shielding the baby. Then it shows a Hamas terrorist standing behind a baby carriage with the baby in it, using the baby to shield him. This cartoon better illustrates the reality that is occurring at the Gaza fence than most of the “objective” reporting by the media.

    This article first appeared in The Hill.
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  24. mchammer

    mchammer 2,500+ Posts

    Any evidence that 50 people died? Likely it was a lot less. Hamas has all the incentive to falsely claim a higher death total.
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  25. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Yes Mch
    and it looks like the baby they claimed died from tear gas did not die from tear gas.
    Shocked I am Hamas lies.
  26. Monahorns

    Monahorns 1,000+ Posts

    But Sangre, Dershowitz is a Zionist Jew so he can't be trusted.

    See how that works?
  27. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 5,000+ Posts

    You, Sangre, and Phil are still basically relying on the justification of signaling. We're not doing it because it's good for us. We're doing it to send a message (or a signal) to the Palestinians and to the Israelis. You also rely on the assumption that our moving of our embassy to Jerusalem is going to impact how Hamas approaches the issue. It won't for two reasons. First, they aren't interested in compromise. Basically they won't be happy with anything but an Islamic state of Palestine. Second, we don't represent "the world." We're one country moving its embassy (though I understand Guatemala is also moving). We're an important country, but if we and Guatemala are the only ones moving an embassy, we're not moving the ball significantly. It's symbolism and nothing more.

    If there was no downside, then I wouldn't care. But there is. Virtually every country in the world hates the move and thinks it aggravates the situation. If the move had real positive effects on US interests, I wouldn't care about alienating everybody else, but it doesn't.

    Keep in mind a few things. First, Israel knows that we're their strongest and most critical ally regardless of where our embassy is. That was true before this move, and it was when true under Obama. He was hostile to Israel but US standards. He was wildly pro-Israel by global standards. There's no need to kowtow to them with pure symbolism.

    Second, though Israel is our most important ally in the Middle East, they're far from our most important ally in the world. If Israel decided to turn against the US (which they never would just because we didn't move our embassy), it wouldn't hurt us that much. If the UK, France, Italy, and Germany turned against us, it would hurt us, and they all pretty much detest the move. Furthermore, because they host our military (especially the UK, Italy, and Germany), they're big reasons why we're capable of providing real protection to Israel in the first place. In other words, it's not worth pissing them off to further impress Israel. In fact, it's not even good for Israel for us to do that.

    Third, it's easy to dismiss European countries for opposing moving their embassies because many of them are paralyzed by political correctness and white guilt and like to mollycoddle Muslims. However, that doesn't explain why countries like the Czech Republic, Poland, Switzerland, and Hungary aren't doing this. There are reasons beyond simply appeasing Muslims or not supporting Israel. Some want Jerusalem to be an international city that isn't anybody's capitol. Some think it should be a capitol to both Israel and a hypothetical Palestinian state. It's more nuanced than simply being pro-Israel or humoring Hamas's dream of a second Holocaust.
    • Like Like x 3
  28. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Extraordinarily easy, it turns out. :D

    Except that the European allies aren’t going anywhere, either. I’m under no illusions that this will change anything in regards to Hamas. It might make some impact on the rank and file Palestinians, but it’s probably unlikely. The only downside this causes in my view is that the Palestinians get mad and do a fence assault, which they were going to do anyway at some point. As one person pointed out, if it’s a day ending in Y then the Palestinians are probably going to protest.

    Maybe I’m wrong but I expect this situation to dwindle back to the normal level of anger before long, everyone will go back to what they were doing and we’ll be back where we were. The difference will be that we’ve tried something different that might possbly change the game where we’ve basically been doing the same thing for 40 years and gotten nowhere. And yes, part of it is saying that we’re not going to continue to let terrorists write our foreign policy.
  29. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 5,000+ Posts

    Yes, and I point this out pretty regularly. However, you sidestepped what I said after that quote, which is that other countries who aren't paralyzed with white guilt and political correctness and who are actually much tougher on Muslims than the US is also keep their embassies in Tel Aviv. There are reasons for that. Trust me. Poland doesn't give a crap about appeasing Muslims.

    No, they're not going anywhere. However, we need them much more than we need Israel, and they could leave us much easier than Israel could. In other words, pissing them off to do more to gain even more favor with Israel (which is far more than any country in the world) isn't a smart transaction. And no, I'm not an advocate of kissing Europe's ***. However, I am an advocate of not pissing them off without cause.

    I agree that it won't make a difference with Hamas. However, you make that assumption and say, "so why not do it?" I make the same assumption and say, "so why do it?" What national security or economic interest is served by making the move? If there is no answer to that (and I still haven't seen one), then I don't see much basis for doing it.

    Like other forms of virtue signalling, the reaction (in both directions) will die down. Who's still talking about Dick's Sporting Goods with their ban on gun sales (or whatever it was)? Nobody. However, it still makes a difference. Dick's put a bad taste in some people's mouths, and long term, they'll probably lose some business because of it. Same thing can happen here.
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
  30. Garmel

    Garmel 1,000+ Posts

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