Turkey - Libya

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Joe Fan, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    I dont know if this is worth another new thread since no one is talking about this. But in case you were wondering why all the sudden interest of Turkey in Libya, it has to do with energy resources. They want to block the East Med pipeline. Once you know this, their troop troop deployments begin to make sense. This is sort of a Natural Gas War.

    You probably already know natty gas was found in the Eastern Med (for first time). I think its called the Leviathan Field, Ive posted about it a couple times before. It's off Israel which made Israel, for the first time in history, an energy player. So they got the idea of building a pipeline to unused refineries in Egypt. Then to Cyprus and then Greece, with Greece being the gateway to Europe.

    The Turks opposed this plan because they already had a plan for their own pipeline to Europe. So they, of course, began a process to stop that plan.

    Now get this -- can you guess the name of the analyst who gave Israel this idea? Seriously, try and guess (you already know the name)
    George Papadopoulos
    Cant make this up. Turkey stood to make a lot more money with Hillary as President. Think about what that means - who was spying on him and why.

    But now with Trump and the East Med deal, Turkey is busy trying to figure a workaround. It has cost the Turks a lot in terms of money + troop movements + political capital. It explains their recent movement into Northern Syria - it is in big part a pipeline blocking move (as opposed to "democracy" or what else they may claim).

    Now Turkey has signed a new accord with one of two governments in Libya. There is a more or less a Tripoli Govt and there is another holding the rest of the country (backed by the Libyan Natl Army). Erdogan signed his deal with the Tripoli faction. Tripoli is backed by Turkey and Qatar (see maps below). Turkey has an oil contract with them but they also made plans with Tripoli to create a "sea border." A what? They are going to try and block the East Med pipeline. And so whatever grand talk you hear from these people about supporting "democracy in Libya" is complete baloney. And there are also reports of Egyptian special forces in Libya right now in support of the other side, the Libyan Army side (unconfirmed).

    Here is the real deal > the European energy consumption market is massive, supposedly THE largest market. Who gets to supply this market is going to make a lot of money. You may recall all the Nordstream stuff I posted earlier (if not, go look at it). We, of course, are pushing LNG from the US too. It is all related -- it is all energy politics. The troops movements are secondary. And this is why Turkey have picked a side in Libya.

    Who will prevail?

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    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  2. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

  3. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    Joe, virtually every conflict ongoing has to do with energy. Everyone either wishes to produce it or control the flow. What do you think Trump is all about?
    1. He hired Tillison in hopes of working out some kind of arrangement with Putin.
    2. He hired Bolton and Abrams to overthrow Madura in order to confiscate the oil.
    3. Prior to becoming President he said the US should “take the oil” referring to Iraq.
    4. He panders to the Saudis because the petrodollar is crucial in order to maintain the economy/empire.
    5. Why do you think Obama killed Gadaffi? The same reason Turkey is there; to control the oil and throw out the Chinese.
     
  4. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

  5. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Why sully up my perfectly great new thread with this retarded nonsense?
     
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  6. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Is the WAPO a lurker here too?

     
  7. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    Because you make idiotic posts which need to be put into a rational context. Instead, you skew everything to satisfy your simplistic agenda of “Trump good, USA good, everything else bad.”
     
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  8. Chop

    Chop 2,500+ Posts

    Another point to factor in. With sustained very low natural gas prices in Texas/Louisiana, our U.S. petrochemical industry has extremely cheap feedstock compared to Germany/France/Netherlands (and Japan for that matter). This is bad for the Euro chemical companies, German ones in particular. Germany needs cheaper gas to compete. The North Sea isn't getting it done. Russia is holding them hostage, probably over-charging them, and doesn't have the pipeline infrastructure to supply gas at the price the German chemical companies need. A gas pipeline from the Mideast must look pretty good to Euro eyes.

    And there's more: The Euros (Germany in particular) want Greece to economically rebound and repay them. Greece will get something out of this.
     
  9. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

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  10. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    This is Trump's angle. He has said it repeatedly. Russia cannot be allowed to have this much power, influence an control over NATO's largest European member. It wholly undermines the purpose of NATO
     
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  11. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    This board is basically an echo chamber. I stand by my previous posts. While my opinions aren’t popular, they are not formulated before first conducting research as objectively as possible and then evaluating what I see. It’s clear to all but the most diehard loyalists that Neocon policy since 9-11 has been a disaster. Trump isn’t playing some kind of 3D chess. He’s a fool and has accelerated the process of moral, political, and economic decline of the country, (regardless of unemployment figures and stock market figures).
     
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  12. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Your posts are not popular because they are so retarded
    Most people here caught onto you pretty quick
    Dont you feel you could reach a much more receptive and broader audience elsewhere?

    There is nothing objective in repeating Putin propaganda
     
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  13. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    And your posts are popular on this forum because they are ignorant and play to a receptively ignorant, but like-minded audience. And yes. I had left this board for quite some time for that reason. I returned to see if anything has changed. It hasn’t. Hope none of your friends or relatives are in the armed serviced unwittingly serving a corrupt ruling class only too glad to exploit them and dupe the public. Best wishes. I’m gone.
     
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  14. Chop

    Chop 2,500+ Posts

    There's another angle to this--actually many other angles. If BASF, etc. want cheap gas feedstocks, then they should have to pay for making that happen. These Germans shouldn't get to rely on the American taxpayers (and military, if push comes to shove) to do it for them. American servicemen and women putting their lives on the line for the benefit of large foreign multi-national corporations? Well, I guess there's a first time for everything...:rolleyes1:

    From a purely pro-Texas, pro-American standpoint, economically, it's good that gas costs so much in Western Europe. It gives us an enormous competitive advantage in an industry dominated by Texas and Louisiana. Plus, it has spurred on the relatively new LNG industry here. That take may be a bit too Machiavellian for some ...?
     
  15. Monahorns

    Monahorns 2,500+ Posts

    Chop, I agree the American taxpayer shouldn't have to pay through government and military for Germany to have cheaper feedstocks. We also shouldn't pay to make American companies more competitive on international markets.

    Everybody needs to play a fair game. Then everybody wins. There doesn't have to be winners and losers.
     
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  16. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Psu pod hvost
     
  17. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Repeating Putin propaganda is not objective
    It's not that Germany should not have gas. Of course they should. And they will get all the gas they want. The idea is that they cannot let themselves become solely dependent upon Russia for 80%+ of their natty gas -- whether its Nordstream or Russian gas disguised as Ukraine gas -- doesnt matter. Trump is correct in this. And I dont think its challenging to think through. If Germany cant see its way through this then NATO must do it for them. It is a security issue -- indeed, it is the single biggest security issue for NATO. It's why NATO was created. It is its primary purpose. Otherwise, NATO is pointless and we should get out.
     
  18. OUBubba

    OUBubba 1,000+ Posts

  19. OUBubba

    OUBubba 1,000+ Posts

    Trump learned to play checkers and he's been spoiled to think that his always start out crowned.

    This place is an echo chamber. I can count on one hand dissenting voices from the "Trump good/libs suck" drumbeat.
     
  20. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    fify
     
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  21. Statalyzer

    Statalyzer 10,000+ Posts

    Joe you just threadjacked your own topic there.

    I find it to have a higher ratio of rationality/post than most other boards, even if there is too much Trump-is-always-right / Republicans-are-always-right stuff going on. If I ever find a board that doesn't have any of that going on for any major political figure or party, I'll let you know.
     
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  22. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    I think you sort of had yourself on the right track but then soiled yourself before getting to the finish line.

    The reason liberals run away from this site is because they do not want to be confronted with facts contrary to their preconceived biases. So they quietly go back to their own hand-picked echo chambers to avoid that confrontation. It's not that they get ganged up on, as you suggest, but rather that they just do not want to deal with anything that challenges them. So they slink back to group-think, where everyone agrees with them.

    It's the same reason we hear or see them chant the mantra, "Oh, that was from Fox ..." Or Breitbart, or 4-Chan or wherever. What difference does it make where it comes from if the facts are accurate? And sometimes, those places are the only ones reporting on something. There are literally hundreds of examples of this. What you call 'right wing media' reported on Jeffrey Epstein literally for years before the MSM finally, begrudgingly covered it.

    When I lived in DC, the Post ABSOLUTELY REFUSED to cover the day-to-day revelations that came up with regard to the Clintons - from Travelgate, to Vince Foster, to Whitewater, to Paula Jones and on through Monica Lewinsky. This order came from the top. So if you wanted to read about it, you HAD to either buy the WSJ or pick up the Washington Times. I cannot tell you how often we were having group discussions at lunch or in someone's office about the latest in the latest Clinton scandal(s) but the folks who only read the Washington Post HAD NO IDEA what we were talking about. We had to constantly educate them, or bring them up to speed..

    This is you guys now. You don't have the facts or at least not all the facts. And it's by choice. It is a conscious decision on your part to limit your sources of news and information. This puts you at an extreme disadvantage when you come in here and try to tell people what is up. Because you don't know what is up and it is obvious to everyone.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  23. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    I thought about that, but it seems to have been worth it in the long run.
     
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  24. OUBubba

    OUBubba 1,000+ Posts

    Yeah, that's the ticket.
     
  25. Garmel

    Garmel 2,500+ Posts

    JF's last paragraph hit the nail on the head, Bubba. Conservatives get our info from the MSM, right wing news, etc.. In other words, many different sources. Libs only get info from one source and it's a source that has trouble with facts at times. You're limiting your knowledge base.
     
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  26. Chop

    Chop 2,500+ Posts

    That's a pretty sound way to look at if from a Western Europe security standpoint, a contain Russia standpoint, or from a German standpoint. One could make the argument that such matters are of the utmost importance in world affairs. Perhaps such matters should trump (pun fully intended) each nation's own selfish economic desires.

    But--from a purely Texas industry standpoint--a weak German chemical sector due to relatively high-priced natural gas is a good thing, and an overall benefit to the economy of Texas.
     
  27. theiioftx

    theiioftx 2,500+ Posts

    Even NPR stated in an intro this morning, “more fallout from the killing of a decorated Iranian General.”

    Listen with a 3rd ear Bubba.
     
  28. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    This latest news of the capitulation by CNN in the Sandman defamation suit is on point. You and your pals piled on the Covington kids, following the lead of CNN, the WAPO and the NYT. All of you were wrong. You were told you were wrong in here, at the time, with facts, but wouldn't listen. You wouldnt consider it. Why? Because you only wanted to listen to and believe what CNN was saying. You refused to consider the alternative set of facts which turned out, once again, to be the correct set of facts. This happens all the time with you guys. CNN was shoveling bullshyte down your piehole, weren't they?

    One good aspect is that this settlement is going to encourage more suits like this. Which I think is great. Not only do attorneys need the work but we can hope that these future actions will eventually drive 'fake news' back into the hole from which it came. You probably dont think this is "the ticket" either. But try asking Gawker about it. Good luck finding hem.
     
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  29. Monahorns

    Monahorns 2,500+ Posts

    The purpose of NATO is to direct buying patterns of German companies and people?

    That is some totalitarian stuff right there.

    Germany if left alone will set up cost effective supply of natural gas. They don't need the moral light of the world the US of A to tell them how to do it.

    As long as Russia charges market price for gas whether they provide 5% or 80% of Germany's gas demand is immaterial.

    This mercantilist, fascist view of the economy is what lead Germany, Japan and Italy to be aggressive militarily in the first place. They wanted to control natural resources for their internal economies and they saw economy as a zero sum game.

    It isn't. It is a win win when you allow individuals and companies make their own decisions to meet their own desires. Standing in the way of that is bad news.
     
  30. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    OK, but natty gas is cheap and plentiful. That's not going to change anytime soon. US producers being able to export is huge (this should have happened way back). Having a cheap supply of energy was actually one of Trump's major points in his economic recovery plan. It's in writing and was published during the campaign.

    To me, gas is the perfect bridge to the future of renewable energy people want. We have it. We have a lot of it. It's cheap. We dont need the Middle East for it. It burns much more cleanly than coal. It's almost the ideal solution for this point in human history. We are so lucky. All Americans should be thrilled. Just look at what Europe is having to do because they dont have enough of their own gas. But people arent thrilled. Instead they seem almost suicidal because of our good fortune. It's too bad.
     
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