Ukraine updates

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by OUBubba, Mar 2, 2022.

  1. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    I agree that oil and gas production should be pursued across the globe. I agree that nuclear power is an attractive alternative if you can make it affordable. But the concept of comparative advantage also should be recognized. Each country or region should prioritized what they are best at and let others do what they are best at. Then have trade between the two. That produces the best economic outcome.

    I get that what you are talking about is different. But comparative advantage can explain why Germany did what they did. Of course then they should realize that it made them dependent on Russia and understand how they could have created a different situation.

    Now how does that effect Germany now? Is Russia harming Germany? Are they using their leverage to withhold oil and gas from Germany? That is not how I understand it. My understanding is that a pipeline was bombed which could have supplied them. Is Nordstream1 shut down too? I am not super familiar. My understanding is that Russia is supplying gas to Germany but less than they need because of sanctions which NATO put on Russia and then with 2nd pipeline being taken offline when they needed more supply for winter.

    Where is Russia's leverage in this?
     
  2. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    They have made Germany a weaker country. It’s not obvious now, but future Germany will be closer to Italy than old Germany. Look up European gas production in the last 20 years. It has dropped 80%, not by depletion but by political will.
     
  3. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    No doubt about it Germany has made themselves weaker and less able to provide for themselves.

    Germany will do okay until or unless the EU breaks apart. They get a sweet economic deal through it. It basically sets up Europe to be a market to sell their manufactured goods in. They absolutely should have better contingency plans for electrical power. Russia was a good economic choice beforehand but once sanctions started it put them in a pinch.

    They are building coal plants now, so we will see how it works out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 10,000+ Posts

    If they also build several nuke plants we will know some semblance of sanity has returned.
     
  5. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    It would. The problem is that doing this takes years. The self-inflicted crisis is here now. Germans aren't going to freeze over the course of the winter, and if Olaf Scholz has to blow Vladimir Putin (literally for figuratively) to make sure they don't, he will do that.

    Ultimately, the Engergiewende was one of the most irresponsible and foreseeably reckless pieces of public policy in the history of Germany. Furthermore, its irresponsibility and recklessness was compounded and made even more foreseeable over the last several years. It was dumb to enact it, and even if they had, they should have changed course back in 2014 when Crimea was annexed. If they had done so and fast tracked nuclear plants back then, they'd be in a much better position now.

    Monahorns is right that so long as the EU common market is in place, they won't run out of money. The EU has basically accomplished economically what the Third Reich failed to accomplish militarily. It's a massive infrastructure that exploits the rest of the continent to make Germany (and to a lesser extent France) very wealthy on the backs of the poor and middle class of southern and eastern Europe.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

  7. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Russia has resources and manpower to remain a global economic power, but led by a corrupt totalitarian government it's proven much less formidable in warfare. The troops are unmotivated and unprepared. Their vaunted high tech equipment and weapons are proven to lack resilience and aren't up to specs. No doubt money earmarked military supplies has been pilfered by Putin's friends. The effort to do it right and catch up to the West is starting from a point of weakness. I grew up thinking of Russia as an awakening economic giant. Right now its economic power is comparable to South Korea or Mexico.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  8. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I think South Korea is a pretty generous comparison.

    I never thought the Soviet Union was an awakening economic giant. Far too bloated and far too centrally planned (and poorly and corruptly so) to become an economic giant beyond what it already was.

    However, once communism was overthrown, I did think Russia would become an economic giant. Tons of natural resources. A good location for forging strong economic ties with big economies in Europe and the Far East. I also figured they'd make a good opportunity for the West to get itself off of Middle Eastern oil, which would make them massively wealthy. I knew it would take a long time, because they had to unlearn ingrained communist practices and the inefficiencies that went with them and build up a better infrastructure, but I figured they'd be pretty strong by now. Had there been less corruption (both on the part of Russian authorities and Western investors) and had Putin not come to power, perhaps they would be.
     
  9. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Anyone notice Ukraine has become the Slavic PLO?

     
  10. huisache

    huisache 2,500+ Posts

    In a war of attrition my money would be on Lincoln and Putin

    Ukraine can win all the battles but end up a smoldering ruin. Like Richmond was. Lee, Napoleon and Hitler all started strong

    Who owned the ruins?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

  12. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    It will be interesting to see what happens in a month or two. I am hearing both sides are waiting for a hard freeze in order to start the next offensive. Probably makes more sense for Russians since they depend more on tanks. But also Russians are posting jobs for ditch diggers and fortification builders in Donbas, Crimea, etc.

    I just wish there could be a way to peace. Ukraine is being destroyed. Citizens on both sides are being oppressed to carry out the war. NATO's involvement threatens nuclear world war. We'll see how the winter goes.
     
  13. Chop

    Chop 10,000+ Posts

    At this point, Putin may be longing for a long-term stalemate, then negotiations to keep much of what Russia has taken and held. Some of the W. European leaders may lean on Ukraine to trade some land for peace and (temporary) stability.
     
  14. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    Yes. I think that is best case scenario for both sides honestly. Maybe Russia gives up a little bit of the land they took last year. They already gave up Kherson. Maybe that is why they did that. A long war that is a stalemate will just drain both countries of men and money. It would absolutely ruin Ukraine and it could cause Russia to break up into smaller states.
     
  15. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    Sounds like Ukraine officials are realizing they can't win the war by themselves. By that I mean they realize they need more men to fight. Now Poland and Romania are considering sending troops and they are asking the US to do so also. Along with the US giving Ukraine Patriot missiles we are continuing the march toward a nuclear WW3.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    I was glad to hear many Republicans called Zekensky out for demanding we give him more money. Pelosi can suck sewer water.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    Not nearly enough. Congress gave him a loud happy standing ovation. Pelosi compared the event to when Chamberlain did the same thing before WW2. Looks like we are still marching towards nuclear war.
     
    • poop poop x 1
  18. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Mona
    Yes not enough but more than I expected.
    There is speculation wants combat troops from Poland Romania
    And USA. :smh:
    I hope you are wrong but WTF is Biden et al doing?
     
  19. theiioftx

    theiioftx Sponsor Deputy

    Biden isn’t making decisions. Carry on.
     
  20. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    No. But he is doing this. Seems about right.

     
    • WTF? WTF? x 1
    • poop poop x 1
  21. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

    Surprised Biden’s hand is not up his ***, being a puppet of US policy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  22. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    iis
    Exactly Biden is not nor can make decisions (prob not even the kind of pudding)
    Which is why I added et al
    They still have to use his name and pretend
     
  23. Chop

    Chop 10,000+ Posts

    Yikes, looks like Joe mistook Zelensky for one of those pre-teen girls that Joe usually creeps out around.
     
  24. lkainer

    lkainer 500+ Posts

     
    • WTF? WTF? x 2
    • poop poop x 1
  25. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I had to laugh at this.

     
  26. Monahorns

    Monahorns 5,000+ Posts

    Look's like Jill is soothing Z so he will let Joe go there.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  27. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    lk
    That vid looks like it is an adult version of those ag yellers who did a vid on their way to Manhattan Ks. Touching my Tra la la Or something like that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  28. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  29. Chop

    Chop 10,000+ Posts

    The Carol of the Bells is a Ukrainian Christmas Carol popularized worldwide by Ukrainian Christians who were driven out and exiled by the Russians/Bolsheviks around 1919 or so.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. mchammer

    mchammer 10,000+ Posts

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