It was provoked in the way a child provokes a pedophile by allowing herself to be alone with him. The way a chicken provokes a coyote. It’s just killing you how big a fail this invasion is for Putin, isn’t it? He turned out to be the guy who weakened Russia, not a new Peter the Great. Putin is destabilizing Russia’s border, not securing it.
14,000 killed by Ukrainian army since 2014 is a pretty good provocation in my opinion. Also in the minds of 100M Russians. But to you, it never happened. Or never mattered.
Almost every adult in Ukraine has a smart phone with streaming capabilities. Why have we seen nothing? Russia can't suppress their live feeds or posting videos. That's my point. Something isn't right. I'm not saying Russia isn't there what I'm saying is we aren't getting the real story.
The sources I see say 14k total, summing separatist militia, civilians and Ukraine military. Russia is the aggressor here, but you already knew that and didn’t care, because it supports your mastubatory Putin fantasies. So, we’re going with this now? Not bio labs? Not NATO provocations? (I always enjoyed the NATO provocation line- it reminded me of how Japan claimed the US provoked them into attacking Pearl Harbor).
There are plenty of Reddit and message board posts with this kind of footage. Just where are you looking? For example-
Let's be honest. Any video that was shared showing Russian bombing hospitals, apartments, etc. would be called "false flags" performed by the Ukrainians by the Q crowd and 70% of this place would say, "I don't know, AC could be on to something here".
Everything you mentioned is a provocation. If you shove me at the grocery store and I shoot you dead, we can argue that my response was disproportionate, but you are foolish to say you didn’t provoke me. If you shoved me and I know you also have a gun in your pocket, maybe my response wasn’t so disproportionate. Either way, you aren’t innocent.
Except that the bio labs have nothing to do with weaponry, NATO really isn’t a military threat (yes, it’s an economic and political threat, but only because Russia is so dysfunctional), and the separatists only exist due to Russia support. Musburger, you have been a Putin apologist for years. I remember you arguing that Ukraine shot that 777 down (something that is not believed by anybody with a stake in the plane). Putin is your true north and you accept arguments that support him and reject arguments that don’t. I am not enjoying this human tragedy, but I am reveling in knowledge that Putin has screwed up, big time. The economy is cratering, NATO is strengthened, and his place in history will be akin to Kim il Sung’ sin North Korea.
The important thing to remember, if you see this as Russia fighting against a US dominated world, is that Russia is the junior partner on the other side. China backed them, hoping to set a template for how they would assimilate Taiwan- overwhelming military superiority, swooping in fast, and waving sanctions aside as the world is forced to accept the new normal. Russia ****** it up. It was supposed to be over in three days. It’s now over three weeks, and Russian progress is stalled. Ukraine is helped by NATO aid to Ukraine, in weapons and intelligence. Russia would like to escalate on the other side and call NATO out as an antagonist, but I bet China doesn’t want that (since they’re assisting Russia, and would be similarly entangled). We should make it clear to China that if Russia uses tactical nukes to subdue Ukraine (as they threaten), the US response will be to put defensive tactical nukes in Taiwan. China needs to put a leash on their dog.
I am familiar with all that history. But the February revolution doesn't happen without the army being out of the country while the people were screaming to get out of the war. The Bolsheviks didn't take over because of money. They took over because they were violent and ruthless. But your point stands. Government intervention in other countries affairs is wrong and the cause of tons of bloodshed. It is why I don't want my nation to be involved in it.
This is what happens when the data isn't on your side. You ignore the data. It is what leftists do all day. Russians are killing civilians. No doubt. I am not for that. But it also doesn't help when Zelensky is showing himself unwilling to negotiate and claiming the other side will have to kill ALL the civilians to win the war. That's poor leadership. The choice shouldn't be genocide or lose. The point is to avoid the worst case scenario. No good ones are on the table.
Well, it must be obvious that who ever is in control doesn't want anyone to know what is going on. That way narratives can be built without challenge.
You really need to read up on what the US has been doing in Russia and Ukraine since 1991. It is provocation using any reasonable definition. What effect did the US government have on the Russian economy in the 90s? What promises did the US make and break? How should we expect Russia to interpret ever encroaching NATO forces? Listen to George Kennan, Henry Kissinger, Mearsheimer, William Perry, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, and many more of the top US experts on Russia over the years.
How can that thought even be in your mind? NATO is a military alliance. It isn't a trade organization. It isn't a political think tank. It is a military pact that if you attack one of these countries they all go to war with you. Regardless of what you think of Russia these are the facts.
Putin played his hand very well in Syria. We played our hand very poorly in Syria (and in Libya). Like I've said before, he's certainly not our friend, but don't underestimate him. Putin has played his hand poorly in Ukraine thus far. Perhaps Putin may have bitten off more than he can chew. But, I won't be so optimistic just yet. Putin has no scruples. If he needs to destroy every city in the Ukraine to win, he won't hesitate. And he doesn't need to use nukes. He can destroy cities with artillery and Katyushkas--that is, assuming he has enough supply...???
Ok, I won't argue that there's an element to this of some Balkans-like "crazy" E. European folks who really hate each other, and want to kill each other, going on.* And we know for a fact there are indeed Biolabs (whatever may actually be in the Biolabs is unknown to the public as of yet). I won't argue there's not. It's pretty clear now that there are Biolabs, and that our gov't lied about them. But none of this justifies the invasion. 1. There are two sovereign, independent states: Russia and Ukraine. Neither has any right or valid reason to invade and occupy the other. 2. Since we're on the internet, a corollary to Godwin's Law from the early days of the internet is 'whomever compares the other side to Nazis first is full of baloney and loses.' Putin and his internet fans are saying the Ukrainians are Nazis. Just saying... *to complete the picture... they also have funny accents, mustaches, large grandmothers who wear scarves, drink a lot, and have BO.
So it’s fine that the US since 2005, and especially 2014 has been funding Bio Weapon Labs in Ukraine? If Russia did tgat same thing in Mexico and Canada, is that OK too? Putin’s only reason to invade was those Labs and whatever the Ukraine Neo Nazi’s were doing. Your ignoring facts staring you In The face.
You should fold into the Mus/Mona camp that this is all the fault of the US. That we have been goading Russia into this since the early 90's. However, magical mystery fruit from this limited military operation is that Putin is going to save those poor Ukrainians from their neo Nazi leaders and the EVERYONE from biomedical weapons.
Not all. But significant. Russia being a bad place ruled by an evil dictator, and their neighbors feeling threatened by them is also a significant factor. But everyone already knows and accepts that piece of it. This part doesn't follow logically from the previous part. Biolabs and Neo-Nazis don't aren't a factor for why Putin invaded.
So Biden is afraid of escalating Putin by providing jets to Ukraine, but openly in public declares Putin a war criminal? To me, this is a much bigger provocation in that Putin would be personally prosecuted (prison/death) and would essentially be unable to travel anywhere outside of Russia. Biden needs to be impeached. He is mentally incompetent at best.
Those are the only two reasons he invaded. Putin has zero interest in taking over Ukraine and they are now deep in peace talks. Hopefully a peace treaty will be signed. MSM ain't telling the truth. That is the problem and I cannot do anything about that, unfortunately. I hope Truth Social reveals more about this soon. Or perhaps the Russians will call another UN Security Council meeting to lay out more evidence. There is a reason why Fox News and many Congressmen and Senators are beating the War drum. The media is not telling us what is going on. It's really frustrating!
Russia has completely broken away from the West, and the West has locked the doors saying in essence, you can never come in. That genie is out of the bottle. So Russia will have to make its own system and they’ll do that with China and whomever else will join. Blinken and Sullivan are courting the Saudis to try to undue the growing relationship with China which would threaten the Petrodollar. India is going to evade Russian sanctions by trading in non dollar denominated currency. So geopolitically. the battle of Ukraine isn’t primarily about sovereignty or democracy; it’s about the emergence of bipolar economic alliances, new reserve currency mechanisms, and who belongs where. Ten years for now, when historians look back at Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, it likely will be remembered more as the trigger for a new world order than it will be for border changes or regime change imo.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-ru ... 34?mod=mhp A Ukrainian Town Deals Russia One of the War’s Most Decisive Routs VOZNESENSK, Ukraine—A Kalashnikov rifle slung over his shoulder, Voznesensk’s funeral director, Mykhailo Sokurenko, spent this Tuesday driving through fields and forests, picking up dead Russian soldiers and taking them to a freezer railway car piled with Russian bodies—the casualties of one of the most comprehensive routs President Vladimir Putin’s forces have suffered since he ordered the invasion of Ukraine. A rapid Russian advance into the strategic southern town of 35,000 people, a gateway to a Ukrainian nuclear power station and pathway to attack Odessa from the back, would have showcased the Russian military’s abilities and severed Ukraine’s key communications lines. Instead, the two-day battle of Voznesensk, details of which are only now emerging, turned decisively against the Russians. Judging from the destroyed and abandoned armor, Ukrainian forces, which comprised local volunteers and the professional military, eliminated most of a Russian battalion tactical group on March 2 and 3. The Ukrainian defenders’ performance against a much-better-armed enemy in an overwhelmingly Russian-speaking region was successful in part because of widespread popular support for the Ukrainian cause—one reason the Russian invasion across the country has failed to achieve its principal goals so far. Ukraine on Wednesday said it was launching a counteroffensive on several fronts. “Everyone is united against the common enemy,” said Voznesensk’s 32-year-old mayor, Yevheni Velichko, a former real-estate developer turned wartime commander, who, like other local officials, moves around with a gun. “We are defending our own land. We are at home.” The Russian military says its Ukraine offensive is developing successfully and according to plan. Moscow hasn’t released updated casualty figures since acknowledging on March 2 the death of 498 troops, before the Voznesensk battle. Russian survivors of the Voznesensk battle left behind nearly 30 of their 43 vehicles—tanks, armored personnel carriers, multiple-rocket launchers, trucks—as well as a downed Mi-24 attack helicopter, according to Ukrainian officials in the city. The helicopter’s remnants and some pieces of burned-out Russian armor were still scattered around Voznesensk on Tuesday. Russian forces retreated more than 40 miles to the southeast, where other Ukrainian units have continued pounding them. Some dispersed in nearby forests, where local officials said 10 soldiers have been captured. “We didn’t have a single tank against them, just rocket-propelled grenades, Javelin missiles and the help of artillery,” said Vadym Dombrovsky, commander of the Ukrainian special-forces reconnaissance group in the area and a Voznesensk resident. “The Russians didn’t expect us to be so strong. It was a surprise for them. If they had taken Voznesensk, they would have cut off the whole south of Ukraine.” Ukrainian officers estimated that some 100 Russian troops died in Voznesensk, including those whose bodies were taken by retreating Russian troops or burned inside carbonized vehicles. As of Tuesday, 11 dead Russian soldiers were in the railway car turned morgue, with search parties looking for other bodies in nearby forests. Villagers buried some others. “Sometimes, I wish I could put these bodies on a plane and drop them all onto Moscow, so they realize what is happening here,” said Mr. Sokurenko, the funeral director, as he put Tuesday’s fifth Russian cadaver on blue-plastic sheeting inside his van marked “Cargo 200”—Soviet military slang for killed in action. A Ukrainian military explosives specialist accompanied him, because some bodies had been booby trapped. About 10 Ukrainian civilians died in Voznesensk during the combat and two more after hitting a land mine afterward, local officials said. Ukraine doesn’t disclose its military losses. There were fatalities, mostly among the Territorial Defense volunteer forces, local residents said. The Russian operation to seize Voznesensk, 20 miles from the South Ukrainian Nuclear Power Plant, was ambitious and well-equipped. It began after Russian forces fanned out of the Crimean Peninsula, which Moscow severed from Ukraine and annexed in 2014, and thrust northward to seize the regional capital of Kherson on March 1. They pushed to the edge of Mykolaiv, the last major city before Odessa, Ukraine’s main port. About 55 miles north of Mykolaiv, Voznesensk offered an alternative bridge over the Southern Bug river and access to the main highway linking Odessa with the rest of Ukraine. Russian forces raced toward the town at the same time as they made a successful push northeast to seize the city of Enerhodar, where another major Ukrainian nuclear power plant is located. Voznesensk’s fall would have made defending the nuclear plant to the north of here nearly impossible, military officials said. Mayor Velichko worked with local businessmen to dig up the shores of the Mertvovod river that cuts through town so armored personnel vehicles couldn’t ford it. He got other businessmen who owned a quarry and a construction company to block off most streets to channel the Russian column into areas that would be easier to hit with artillery. Ahead of the Russian advance, military engineers blew up the bridge over the Mertvovod and a railroad bridge on the town’s edge. Waiting for the Russians in and around Voznesensk were Ukrainian regular army troops and members of the Territorial Defense force, which Ukraine established in January, recruiting and arming volunteers to help protect local communities. Local witnesses, officials and Ukrainian combat participants recounted what happened next. Missile strikes The Russian assault began with missile strikes and shelling that hit central Voznesensk, destroying the municipal swimming pool and damaging high-rises. Helicopters dropped Russian air-assault troops in a forested ridge southwest of Voznesensk, as an armored column drove from the southeast. Mr. Velichko said a local collaborator with the Russians, a woman driving a Hyundai SUV, showed the Russian column a way through back roads. Ukrainian officers estimate that some 400 Russian troops took part in the attack. The number would have been bigger if these forces—mostly from the 126th naval infantry brigade based in Perevalnoye, Crimea, according to seized documents—hadn’t come under heavy shelling along the way. Natalia Horchuk, a 25-year-old mother of three, said Russian soldiers appeared in her garden in the village of Rakove in the Voznesensk municipality early March 2. They told her and neighbors to leave for their safety, and parked four tanks and infantry fighting vehicles between the houses. “Do you have anywhere to go?” she recalled them asking. “This place will be hit.” “We can hide in the cellar,” she replied. “The cellar won’t help you,” they told her. Hiding valuables, she and her family fled, as did most neighbors. Outside Rakove, Volodymyr Kichuk, a guard at a walnut plantation, woke to find five Russian airborne troops in his hut. They took his phone and forced him to lie on the ground, said his wife, Hanna. “Once they realized there was nothing to steal, they told him: You can get up after we leave,” she said. By day’s end, the couple were gone from the village. Russian soldiers took over villagers’ homes in Rakove and created a sniper position on a roof. They looked for sacks to fill with soil for fortifications, burned hay to create a smoke screen and demanded food. A local woman who agreed to cook for the Russians is now under investigation, said Mr. Dombrovsky. “A traitor—she did it for money,” he said. “I don’t think the village will forgive her and let her live here.” Downhill from Rakove, Russian forces set up base at a gas station at Voznesensk’s entrance. A Russian BTR infantry fighting vehicle drove up to the blown-up bridge over the Mertvovod, opening fire on the Territorial Defense base to the left. Five tanks, supported by a BTR, drove to a wheat field overlooking Voznesensk. A group of Territorial Defense volunteers armed with Kalashnikovs was hiding in a building at that field’s edge. They didn’t have much of a chance against the BTR’s large-caliber machine gun, said Mykola Rudenko, one of the city’s Territorial Defense officers; some were killed, others escaped. Russian troops in two Ural trucks were preparing to assemble and set up 120mm mortars on the wheat field, but they got only as far as unloading the ammunition before Ukrainian shelling began. Phoning in coordinates As darkness fell March 2, Mr. Rudenko, who owns a company transporting gravel and sand, took cover in a grove on the wheat field’s edge under pouring rain. The Russian tanks there would fire into Voznesensk and immediately drive a few hundred yards away to escape return fire, he said. Mr. Rudenko was on the phone with a Ukrainian artillery unit. Sending coordinates via the Viber social-messaging app, he directed artillery fire at the Russians. So did other local Territorial Defense volunteers around the city. “Everyone helped,” he said. “Everyone shared the information.” Ukrainian shelling blew craters in the field, and some Russian vehicles sustained direct hits. Other Ukrainian regular troops and Territorial Defense forces moved toward Russian positions on foot, hitting vehicles with U.S.-supplied Javelin missiles. As Russian armor caught fire—including three of the five tanks in the wheat field—soldiers abandoned functioning vehicles and escaped on foot or sped off in the BTRs that still had fuel. They left crates of ammunition. Mr. Rudenko picked up a Russian conscript days later, he said, who served as an assistant artillery specialist at a Grad multiple-rocket launcher that attacked Voznesensk from a forest. The 18-year-old conscript, originally from eastern Ukraine and a Crimea resident since 2014, suffered a concussion after a Ukrainian shell hit near him. He woke the next morning, left his weapon and wandered into a village, Mr. Rudenko said. There, a woman took him into her home and called the village head, who informed Territorial Defense. “He’s still in shock about what happened to him,” Mr. Rudenko said. Mr. Dombrovsky, the reconnaissance-unit commander, said he captured several soldiers in their early 20s and a 31-year-old senior lieutenant from the Russian military intelligence. The lieutenant, he said, had forced a private to swap uniforms but was discovered because of the age discrepancy—and because Ukrainian forces found Russian personnel files in the column’s command vehicle. “The Russians had orders to come in, seize, and await further instructions,” Mr. Dombrovsky said. “But they had no orders for what to do if they are defeated. That, they didn’t plan for.” Russian troops had detained a local man on March 2 after they found him to have binoculars, villagers said. “They had put him in a cellar and told him they will execute him in the morning, for correcting artillery fire,” Mr. Dombrovsky said, adding that the detainee wasn’t a spotter. “But in the morning they didn’t have time to execute him. They were too busy fleeing.” The Russians retreat As the Russian forces retreated on March 3, they shelled the downhill part of Rakove. A direct hit pierced the roof of the local clinic, where Mr. Dombrovsky’s mother, Raisa, worked as a nurse. “We’ve just built a new roof,” she sighed, showing the gaping hole. “But it doesn’t matter. The main thing is that we have kicked them out, and survived.” When villagers returned to Rakove on March 4, they found their homes ransacked. “Blankets, cutlery, all gone. Lard, milk, cheese, also gone,” said Ms. Horchuk. “They didn’t take the potatoes because they didn’t have time to cook.” This week, village homes still bore traces of Russian soldiers. Cupboards and closets were still flung open from looting, and Russian military rations and half-eaten jars of pickles and preserves littered floors. The Ukrainian army’s 80th brigade was towing away the last remaining Russian BTRs with “Z” painted on their sides, the identification markers that in Russia have become the symbol of the invasion. About 15 Russian tanks and other vehicles were in working or salvageable condition, said Mr. Dombrovsky. “We are ready to hit the Russians with their own weapons,” he said. Others, mostly burned-out wrecks, were removed from streets because they scared civilians and contained ordnance, the mayor said. Ukrainian troops build a defensive position on Voznesensk’s outskirts. Electricity, disrupted during combat, has returned in Voznesensk, as have internet, gas and water services. ATMs have been restocked with cash, supermarkets with food. The only explosions are from bomb squads occasionally disposing ordnance. Mr. Velichko, the mayor, fielded citizen phone calls Tuesday, telling one he would take care of a possibly rabid dog and assuring another that her utilities wouldn’t be cut in wartime even if she was late in paying. He argued with an army commander because Ukrainian soldiers had siphoned fuel from the gas station. Spartak Hukasian, head of the Voznesensk district council, said the city—no longer near front lines—was starting to get used to relatively peaceful life again. “He who laughs last laughs best,” he said. “We haven’t had a chance to laugh until now.” Write to Yaroslav Trofimov at yaroslav.trofimov@wsj.com
https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/death- ... 1647441273 Four Russian Generals Killed in Three Weeks Show Moscow’s Vulnerabilities in Ukraine Russia’s fighting style and troubled communications are leading to deaths of high-ranking officers on the front lines By William Mauldin , Thomas Grove and Bojan Pancevski March 16, 2022 10:34 am ET Four Russian brigadier generals have died in three weeks on the battlefield in Ukraine, Kyiv officials said, showing faults in Moscow’s ability to lead troops into battle. The fallout could shape the outcome of the war, according to Ukrainian and Western officials. The deaths of Gen. Vitaly Gerasimov, Gen. Andrei Kolesnikov, Gen. Oleg Mityaev and Gen. Andrei Sukhovetsky were announced by Ukrainian officials and confirmed by some Russian media reports, but not the Kremlin. They were veterans of Russia’s earlier conflicts in Georgia, Ukraine and Syria, where Russia also lost generals. The Russian military’s fighting style appears to have contributed to the losses, analysts say. Other factors include subpar radio communications and intense fighting, including ambushes by Ukrainian forces near cities. Replacing them with officers with similar experience could prove difficult. “Their level of small-unit leadership, as they themselves recognize, is not great, which is why you see general officers much more forward in the field” in the Russian army, said Col. John “Buss” Barranco, a U.S. Marine Corps fellow at the Atlantic Council, a Washington think tank. “They are overly dependent on senior people micromanaging from the front because they don’t have the same noncommissioned officer corps to exercise initiative,” he said. Given the limited public details about the generals’ deaths, Western officers and analysts can’t say which Ukrainian actions against Russian officers have proven most successful, or whether mistakes on the Russian side left their officers vulnerable. The Russian officers killed in action have a rank that translates as “major general,” which equates to one-star officers, analogous to brigadier generals or simply “brigadiers” in the west Their presence in the dangerous part of the conflict is partly due to a tradition that gives these generals broad authority not only to send troops into battle but also to decide when to adjust tactics due to unforeseen circumstances when encountering the enemy, analysts say. “The Russian military is top heavy and the officer class plays a heavier role,” said Rob Lee, a senior fellow at the Foreign Policy Research Institute who has worked in Russia. “The military has very centralized decision making so it’s not shocking that these guys are up in the front at the friction points.” By contrast, the U.S. military relies on more junior officers, including lieutenant colonels, whose training equips them to change course during a battle, with close communication with more senior officers far from the front lines. Only one U.S. general has died in combat in decades, the victim of an attack by a disgruntled Afghan soldier. On the other side, Ukrainian units are also encountering heavy fire from the Russian army. Russia’s Defense Ministry regularly lists the number of Ukrainian tanks and armored vehicles it says it has destroyed—now 1,353—but hasn’t touted the deaths of Ukrainian military brass. A dedicated team of Ukrainian military intelligence special operations forces has been tasked with specifically locating and targeting Russia’s officer class, according to a person in Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s inner circle. “They look for high profile generals, pilots, artillery commanders,” said the person. “They have all their details, names, army numbers,” adding that the officers were then targeted either with sniper fire or artillery. The person said the group is using all methods at its disposal to locate the Russian officers, who have often been found using unencrypted radio equipment, with transmissions that can be intercepted or pinpointed on a map, the person said. Training, drones and antitank weapons provided by North Atlantic Treaty Organization countries have helped Ukraine disrupt the Russian advance and put senior Russian officers at risk, Western officials say. In modern warfare, soldiers are taught to disrupt the enemy’s leadership and communications as quickly as possible. “We were always taught to look for the command and control vehicle and hit it first, and that is the node that is linking everything else,” Col. Barranco said. The Russians’ deaths are a “reflection of poor discipline, lack of operational experience and a lack of training,” said retired Gen. Ben Hodges, former commander of the U.S. Army in Europe. He said the generals may have wanted to personally take charge of the situation or understand why the invasion is stalling. “They paid a price for that,” he said. Another vulnerability is Russia’s use of communications equipment, former military officers and analysts said, citing publicly available information showing that Russian officers in Ukraine are relying to a large degree on mobile phones and unencrypted VHF and high-frequency radio contact rather than advanced, encrypted radios. NATO aircraft with broad ability to detect radio transmissions have flown near Ukraine and Russia has accused Western intelligence agencies of funneling information to Kyiv to help with the war. Ukraine has its own considerable expertise dealing with Russian communications after facing Moscow in fights from Crimea to eastern Ukraine since 2014. Even if the generals’ vehicles or nearby troops weren’t being targeted directly, the lack of effective radio communication means a Russian officer is more likely to wander into harm’s way on the battlefield, said Sam Cranny-Evans, an analyst at the Royal United Services Institute in London. “He would need to be in a place where he could understand what’s going on,” Mr. Cranny-Evans said. “If that means that he has to come within reach of the Ukrainians, then that is probably more a result of the fragmented nature of the battlefield.” Write to William Mauldin at william.mauldin@wsj.com, Thomas Grove at thomas.grove@wsj.com and Bojan Pancevski at bojan.pancevski@wsj.com
