What if it was not the Russians?

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Horn6721, Dec 13, 2016.

  1. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

    Not that the country doesn't care about Russia, but it's obvious that the country as whole views John Podesta's actual proven manipulation of the media and the electorate as much more disgusting.
     
  2. Brad Austin

    Brad Austin 2,500+ Posts

    No worries, we're no longer speaking the same language on this thread. Much disputed in my last reply was twisting words and removed them from my intended meanings.

    Not assigning blame, just saying communication lines are getting crossed. By my own rules when distortion grows plenty...time to move on. :smile1:
     
  3. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

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  4. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    I agree with this guy. That's why we shouldn't accuse anybody of anything, but we should have a full investigation.
     
  5. Horn6721

    Horn6721 Half of seeming clever is keeping your mouth shut.

    My question is why wasn't there ALREADY a full investigation?
     
  6. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Local media fact checker shames the national media over the Russian hack story

     
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  7. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    I agree. But lets let Trumps admin handle the investigation so that it won't be a rush job.
     
  8. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    This is horrible. Now Putin has control of local news stations in the USA and has his stooges running fake news stories. Don't listen!
     
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  9. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    We shouldn't let Trump's Administration do it alone for the same reason we shouldn't have had the Obama Administration handle the HRC investigation. There's a likely conflict of interest.
     
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  10. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    From what I understand, the NSA has the tools to investigate. They then can turn over what they have to the other agencies (CIA, FBI, etc.). Those agencies then interpret what they have. If it was a slam dunk, the investigation would be over. Instead, what we have are anonymous leaks put out by the CIA. Obama's explanation for the investigation was obscure in terms of process, yet definitive in blaming Russia. My belief is he is lying again.
     
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  11. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    from Aug 2015

     
  12. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    I don't see the conflict of interest by Trump if it's after the inauguration. Once he's in power he has a big interest in knowing how much hacking the Russians have done. He will want it stopped if proven now that it's his watch.
     
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  13. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    The investigation should be conducted independently, not by the agencies. I'm not suggesting anything is slam dunk either way, but anyone forming a strong opinion either way is prejudging the matter.
     
  14. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    LOL!
     
  15. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    Last edited: Dec 22, 2016
  16. Horn6721

    Horn6721 Half of seeming clever is keeping your mouth shut.

    I know the lame duck has imposed sanctions on Russia including on intelligence agencies, closed down 2 Russian facilities here in USA and expelled 35 diplomats.
    Did he/they release any actual proof? I know both GOP and Dem congresspeople including Dem senators on the Senate Intelligence Committee have asked for proof and as far as I know have not received any response from BO.
    If it was the Russians BO should do what he is doing but First providing proof at least to some in Congress is a must.
     
  17. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    You can laugh. Any investigation before the inauguration is only about diminishing Trumps Presidency in a hurry up and get a finding with no serious investigation. After the inauguration then it would be only about finding the truth. Obama has lost his credibility due to doing what's best for his party and not what's best for America for 8 solid years now. Trump deserves the benefit of doubt going in like all Presidents do that he will do what's best for America if we are actually getting cyber attacks with hacks by Russia.
     
  18. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    If you don't see the potential conflict of interest here, then Trump effectively has absolute immunity with you. You're like an OJ juror.
     
  19. Horn6721

    Horn6721 Half of seeming clever is keeping your mouth shut.

    Mr D,
    So you are convinced BO has actual evidence Russia is responsible for the hacking?
    If not then there would be no conflict of Interest would there?

    Again if there is verifiable evidence then perhaps the sanctions are not severe enough. AND if there is such evidence why did not BO do this back when they found this out?
     
  20. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    No. I am convinced that an independent investigation should be conducted and that everybody should avoid making any prejudgments. At this point, I think the sanctions are premature and politically motivated.
     
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  21. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    The problem with an "independent" investigation, is in what the definition of independent means.

    If it means that due to "national security concerns," the only people privy to evidence would be the CIA - the agency seemingly most invested in a Clinton victory - I think it takes away all credibility. If the summary turns out to be "we discovered hard evidence of Russian interference, trust us, but we can't show it to anyone" nobody will buy this anymore than we still believe yellowcake purchases by Saddam.
     
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  22. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Mus, that's a legitimate concern, but that's not what I mean by "independent." What I mean is that the usual political hacks who answer to the President or agency officials (such as the Attorney General) shouldn't be in charge.
     
  23. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    From now on, anytime the government issues a statement, or announces findings, you have to see who the actual people behind the statement/findings are, what their interests are, and how the statement/findings effect them. Just about everyone realizes the DOJ has morphed into an instrument used to protect the executive branch and upholding the law is somewhere well down the line in terms of priority. The FBI and CIA are politicized and the latter has tentacles inside the major media corporations. Congress is the elected portion of the government and has always been subject to influence, but now can be legally bought and sold ever since the the Supreme Court codified this into law with the Citizens United ruling. Presidential elections consist of front men who represent competing coalitions of mafias - or at least something very close to such. Independent investigations are pretty near impossible. Even the 9-11 investigation was admittedly restrained according to the members on that committee.
     
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  24. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    You just pretty much restated what I said. Only difference is let's let Trump appoint the independent investigation after the inauguration instead of Obama appointing an independent investigation before the inauguration. My point is it's routine for Obama to appt corruption as "independent. Why do you think it's a conflict of interest if Trump appoints? Either outcome of Russian hack or not doesn't reflect Trump directly. I believe Trump wants to know if we are being hacked. If they did then Trump can come out looking good on how he reacts to it.
     
  25. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    We didn't say the same things at all. You don't think Trump has a conflict of interest. Well, if he and his team don't have a conflict, then there's no reason to appoint an independent investigator. You can have the CIA and FBI investigate the matter and let Trump's people decide what to do.

    I think there's a pretty blatant conflict or potential conflict. That's why an independent investigation should be launched. If the lead investigator is truly independent, then I don't particularly care who appoints him.
     
  26. Horn6721

    Horn6721 Half of seeming clever is keeping your mouth shut.

    MrD
    What in your opinion is Trump's conflict of interest?
     
  27. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    It's in his political interest that there be no finding of involvement by the Russian government and if there is, that the involvement be minor. And of course, that's compounded greatly if there's evidence that Trump or his campaign coordinated or had knowledge of the alleged involvement. Obviously, that's very much against Trump's interest.

    Let's put it this way. The same arguments that he doesn't have a conflict could have been used (and were used) to argue that Obama and Lynch didn't have a conflict in Hillary's e-mail investigation. Obviously, they did.
     
  28. I35

    I35 5,000+ Posts

    The Dems have proven over and over again that they don't appoint "true independents." Not sure how you don't see that.

    The independent investigation isn't going to be looking at if Trump having dealings secretly with the Russians. That's another false accusation that the Dems just throw out there to see if anything will stick. Secondly, they are investigating if Russia are the ones that hacked the DNC stuff. That has nothing to do with Trump. The only reason his name is being mention is because the DNC are trying to divert attention away from what the actual emails are about and say it helped Trump win. So please explain again why there is a conflict of interest with Trump and Russia? The Dems are saying dealings? What kind of dealing do you think they are talking about? The word "dealing" sound so bad. But unless it's proven that Trump and Putin were in bed with each other to help Trump win then I don't understand what conflict of interest you're talking about. Nobody is actually coming out and accusing Trump and Putin planned together to help him get the Presidency. Again, Trump isn't getting investigated. The independent investigation is about the hacking of the DNC.
     
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  29. Horn6721

    Horn6721 Half of seeming clever is keeping your mouth shut.

    I35
    You made the point better than I ever could.
     
  30. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    There's so much speculation and presumption in this that I can't get into it tonight. Mrs. Deez has told me that the "Eve of New Year's Eve" is a special occasion that warrants a cheese fondue, so I have to attend to that. (In case you care, that's 1/2 Emmenthaler, 1/4 Gruyere, and 1/4 strong Appenzeller. Mucho goodo.)

    IMG_20161230_212838.jpg
     
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