Zimbabwe or Rhodesia?

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by TahoeHorn, Dec 13, 2008.

  1. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn 1,000+ Posts

    ********, I already explained to you how the tory insult made no sense and evidences a lack of understanding and appreciation of the history of this country circa the revolutionary war to at a very minimum the age of jackson.

    But continue to ignore that in favor of trite, ******** insults.
     
  2. Austintxusa

    Austintxusa 2,500+ Posts


     
  3. TahoeHorn

    TahoeHorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  4. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn 1,000+ Posts

    Interestingly enough, it's how the founding fathers set up our system of government. They didn't call it net tax payers, they called it "landowners" but it was the same concept.

    Of course that was tnagential to the point I was making and thrown in mostly for hyperbole but latch onto that and ignore the rest insult deleted.
     
  5. Austintxusa

    Austintxusa 2,500+ Posts


     
  6. naijahorn

    naijahorn 250+ Posts

    Hornius, there is little to say when someone doesn't even begin to understand what the status of things are in Africa right now.

    The trends are actually positive not negative. Forgive me for thinking Africa will do well in the hands of Africans, and not by putting its future in the hands of the well-meaning Western industrialists or benevolent dictators. I have only the facts at hand (more democratic elections, annual growth above average for other industrialized nations, decrease in the number of conflicts around the continent and so on) to assure me of this.

    It's amazing that there are people who actually live there and make money. Heck, even more amazing, that some people actually leave the US and move back and are very satisfied with their lives there. It must be a mistake that such a thing is trending upwards.
     
  7. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn 1,000+ Posts

    Zimbabwe is trending upward? South Africa is trending upward? Sierra Leonne is trending upward?

    The first thing the western world can do is eliminate debt obligations, something that has been and should continue to happen.

    The next best thing that can happen is aid from our largess to help with their basic human suffering, along the lines of aids help, or mosquito nets. Clean water, medicines that we produce for pennies that can save lives etc.

    A government that cannot reasonably insure the safety of its population is not a government that can in any way, shape or form succeed. That's basic social contract right there and that's an epic fail in much of the continent.

    Resource development is the key (or a key) I suppose and it needs to be done in a way that makes everyone better off, not just the very top of the foodchain rich. What's happened in the past didn't work and what's happening now isn't working. Thus my analogy of a trust situation.

    And it isn't a black thing its a competence thing and a human nature thing. Give someone the chance to exploit and they will invarably do so for their own ends.
     
  8. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn 1,000+ Posts

    Maslow's heirarchy of needs is apt here. The base of the pyramid (societally) is safety. Without freedom from the threat of genocide or bodily harm or starvation there is nothing else the government can do.

    Many governments on the continent are not getting that rung of the pyramid right. Without that there is no need to worry, argue, or quibble over higher order concepts like self determination when genocide is ongoing.
     
  9. TahoeHorn

    TahoeHorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  10. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn 1,000+ Posts

    Tahoe- is there a better guy out there?

    I'm a neocon so I don't agree with you. If we are going to do something I want to see us try to do it right.

    I understand your perspective I just want better from the US then that. I get what you are saying and it isn't neocon doctrine at all, you are correct in that.
     
  11. naijahorn

    naijahorn 250+ Posts

    So you list 3 countries as a sign of what exactly? Do you want to go through all 53 countries until we determine the exact number that are trending upwards versus downwards? If I list 4 off the top of my head here, does that effectively negate your argument?

    What a dumb tactic.

    And yes, of the list you included Sierra Leone is trending upwards. Take the time to read up before you spout off. Let us check the evidence of that; the war ended in 2002, Ahmad Kabbah was subsequently re-elected, he served two terms before handing over power to Ernest Bai Koroma in September of 2007, who won a run-off election. 3 successful, peaceful elections consecutively. Disarmament has been completed. UN Peacekeepers withdrew from the country in 2005. The ICRC (Red Cross) just announced that they are scaling back activities in the country and no longer will maintain an independent presence in the country. The press release cites this as a reason: "The decision to wind down operations was taken as a result of progress in Sierra Leone's peace consolidation process." Since the war ended, Sierra Leone is finally beginning to see a dramatic increase in legitimate profits from diamond sales, and has resumed export of other raw materials that were suspended because of the war. Sierra Leone has also gotten commendations on labor laws passed, especially pertaining to the right of women and children.

    None of this means the country is perfect, or even 'good' right now. There quality of life still leaves much to be desired and citizenry still distrust the government (especially the Army). But to categorically deny that it is in fact "trending upwards" speaks to your own bias and agenda.
     
  12. Austintxusa

    Austintxusa 2,500+ Posts

    Tahoe, sorry I miss-characterized your position. However, I think yours would be a bigger mistake than what the neocons advocate. At least they understand that if you break it you own it.

    It is just that I adhere to the neorealist view.
     
  13. buckhorn

    buckhorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  14. Uninformed

    Uninformed 5,000+ Posts

    What has happened to the birth rate over the last 30 years? What about the death rate? Life expectancy? Education rate? Job growth? My guess is the problems today are very similar to how they were in the past and the solutions are very similar. The major change is the lack of desire to implement solutions.
     
  15. Macanudo

    Macanudo 2,500+ Posts


     
  16. TahoeHorn

    TahoeHorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  17. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn 1,000+ Posts

    What is ignorant and what is nonsense.

    My interpretation of the history of the foundation of our country and examples cited that the founding fathers were concerned about turning over the reigns of a republic to a citizenry not ready for it?

    Or my idea that the west should forgive all the debt obligations to africa. Or my pointing out that Africa is a mess right now. Or that the resources need to be used for the betterment of all the people and creation of a middle class and not to make a very tiny ruling class rich while the rest of the country burns. Or that we shouldn't be involved in Africa unless and until we are ready to do something constructive (and I think we can and should and it's a stain on our nations character that we allow the poverty, oppresion, war and genocide that happens when we can stop it).

    Really, which of those things are madness or luncacy? I'm curious b/c that is really the point of what I was trying to say.
     
  18. buckhorn

    buckhorn 1,000+ Posts

    Tahoe, colonialism has no answer for us here. Why bring it up unless you want to parrot those that do want a return to colonialism. Aside from the debatable nature of the assertion that Rhodesia was better for the populace than Zimbabwe has been (do you mean currently or for the entire 30 years or so that Mugabe has been in power?), what exactly does Rhodesia have to do with anything? No one really talks about Rhodesia anymore except Mugabe and Rhodesian apologists/hagiographers. If you don't mean for us to contemplate a non-starter like 'Zimbabwe or Rhodesia,' don't title threads in that manner and then suggest that blacks were better off under colonial rule. At least Wu was honest enough to come right out and say he would like to see Africa become colonized again, or at least become a protectorate of some sort.

    Wu, your efforts to concoct a plan for Africa by eliciting the long gone elitism of our founding fathers is absurd in that it is an inapposite application of historical events and ignorant because it reflects a profound lack of attention to the history of any given African nation.

    I stated that some of what you have said makes some sense, but you must admit that the tenor and substance of your last post represents a considerable migration away from your initial posts, which seemed to want to return to colonial rule because blacks in total cannot rule themselves.
     
  19. Uninformed

    Uninformed 5,000+ Posts

    buckhorn, you are not correct. The same problems that Rhodesia experienced under colonialism are now experienced by Zimbabwe. Child death rates, teen pregnancies, birth rates, life expectancy, education rates, job opportunities, and economic buying power are no better today than they were 40 years ago. The same problems require the same solutions. It isn't being talked about, though. That is because there is a lack of desire to implement solutions.
     
  20. HornsInTheHouse

    HornsInTheHouse 500+ Posts


     
  21. TahoeHorn

    TahoeHorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  22. buckhorn

    buckhorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  23. buckhorn

    buckhorn 1,000+ Posts


     
  24. LightTheTower

    LightTheTower 100+ Posts


     
  25. Uninformed

    Uninformed 5,000+ Posts

    HornsInTheHouse,

    My mention of teen pregnancy is an indirect way of saying that overpopulation in underdeveloped countries is a huge problem. There are simply too many people per GDP and too many mouths to feed per person feeding them. And outside help may cause more harm than good, if the birth rate continues to rise and infant mortality continues to trend upward (due to the total increase in population).

    buckhorn,
    I think you are getting worked up over Tahoe's comments when they were made primarily to get the discussion started. Instead of getting worked up over the comments, I suggest that you look more critically at the assertion that the current blase attitude is at least partly due to the disappearance of colonialism boogeyman. And as I stated above, the current problems in Zimbabwe are very similar to the problems encountered by Rhodesia. Morevover, the solutions are similar as well.
     
  26. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn 1,000+ Posts

    ********- I don't have a disingenuous bone in my body and never post that way, but whatever. I think you don't know what that word means. I can be an ******* or jerk I suppose, but I'm not disingenuous as I say what I mean, don't parse words and don't post rhetorical questions designed to elicit certain answers and try not to engage in stawman fallacies that run rampant on this board at times. I'm a partisan for conservative thought but not disingenuous.

    Buck- it isn't a black/white issue to me, the population just happens to be black. It's more an issue that with no infrastructure in place and a largely uneducated populace in most places on the continent they are not ready to govern in the 21st century and need some help to come into the current world. IN the meantime something should be done to not allow the resources of the country to be further exploited for the profit of the very few. And, whenever you speak of Africa your are necessarily painting with an overly braod brush, my analysis would be different for Sierra Leonne then for say, Nigeria.

    That's what I was trying to explain in my heiracrchy of needs point with Maslow. Nobody who spends most of their time worried about sustinence has the time to engage in thinking about issues like self-actualization. On a small scale we see it with human beings- the guy that works two jobs to barely make ends meet and keep food on the table probably doesn't read much isn't up on the latest political manueverings or world affairs and doesn't write op ed pieces. Not b/c he's dumb but b/c he doesn't have time or energy to deal with that as he's worried about sustaining his life. On a nationstate level we see it as well. There is no need or worry about high minded or alturistic concepts if you cannot keep your people safe, secure and fed.
     
  27. naijahorn

    naijahorn 250+ Posts


     
  28. naijahorn

    naijahorn 250+ Posts

    In reply to:


     
  29. naijahorn

    naijahorn 250+ Posts

    Wulaw, your one line analysis of Sierra Leone was wrong, so try not to take on another country. And whatever merits your overly general ideas may have are negated by your tone-deaf take on 'Africa.'
     
  30. Uninformed

    Uninformed 5,000+ Posts

    Naija,

    He is incorrect in saying that the problems today are different from the problems of the past. And he is incorrect in assuming that the solutions today are different than they were in the past.
     

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