So, how long do we have to be an elite program?

It may have been mentioned, but an elite program will need, over time, to maintain a high standard under more than one coach (for example, we'll see how Arizona and Indiana continue to fare).

 

Texas is on the road, but the road is long and hard.

Florida is on the road but further behind because, in spite of having won two championships and lost another, they have little history and have since done nothing.

Is Arizona still an elite BB school? Georgetown?

It takes alot to get there and not very much to slip from the ranks.

 

Hmmm Donovan went to the Final 4 in 2000 (so that's 2 more than Barnes).

He got a Florida a #1 rating in 2003. His last 2 NIT seasons, Florida still had over 22 wins.

After his first 2 seasons (13 and 14 wins), he hasn't been under 20 wins in 11 years and you're claiming his national championships are the anomaly?? Ok......... (PS and I hate Florida...)

Texas gets their 1st No. 1 rating in 2010 (7 years and 2 national championships behind Florida and we're ahead of them in "tradition")? Guess my Texas degrees failed to teach me your form of logic.....

 

Are you talking to me? If so, I didn't say that Texas had better tradition than Florida. I said Texas has been more consistent.

I don't think Donovan stumbled into the championship in '06. I thought he did a fine coaching job in the tournament that year. That team was ranked around 10th going into the tournament. And winning with the same guys the next year, IMO, is underrated. There are so many things that can happen to a team that is trying to repeat.

But, Donovan also recruited very well in the years following the first FF. You point out that he had a No. 1 ranked team in 2003 -- that team beat Sam Houston in the NCAAs. Congratulations. His only other wins in the NCAAs in the five years between FFs were over Western Kentucky and Ohio, and of the five losses, four were by double digits. As I think I said earlier, no seed lower than five, and there were two first-round losses in there. Is that a record to be proud of?

And, FWIW, I don't think 20 wins in this era means what it used to, now that teams can play as many as 34 games before the postseason.

I admit to not being a huge fan of Donovan as a coach. He has been, like Barnes, a terrific recruiter. But that's what college coaches with good records are.

Since you sort of asked me, if we are talking program strength right now, I'd be inclined to put Texas ahead of Florida. In the last three years, UF has barely dented the rankings, while Texas is going to finish this season averaging more weeks in the top 10 each year during that period than the total number of weeks Florida was ranked.

That said, Barnes does have more to prove. He probably does need a championship eventually to "validate" his record. But those are hard to get, and coaches who are not considered great have won them. Dean Smith has two, and both required brain locks by opponents in the final minute to secure them. Guy Lewis didn't get one, and he's not in the HOF because of that (and he made five more FFs than John Chaney, who never made the FF and is in the HOF).

 

Florida is not an elite basketball program. Anyone who questions that is clearly not a serious college basketball fan. Are the Florida Marlins an elite MLB franchise because they won 2 World Series titles in a relatively short period of time? I think not.

There is a difference between an elite team and an elite program. Florida had an elite team for a couple of years. They accomplished nothing before then and have accomplished nothing since then. So they are not an elite program.

I agree with the person above who said that it takes decades of consistent success with multiple national championships and high tournament finishes, and maybe even a tradition of lottery picks and POYs (which we have) to be considered an elite program. And I definite "elite" as people immediately thinking of you when they run down the list of the top college basketball programs of all time. I always laugh when Aggies insist they are a "basketball school" because they've made the tournament a whopping 4 years in a row, although they've never made it past the Sweet 16 during that time. They also haven't shown that they can hold onto a good coach for a significant period of time, which lends to the perception of A&M as a "stepping stone" program and not a destination program for the best coaches.

I also agree that media perception is part of the equation, whether it should be or not. And it's not just wins that the media cares about. They are skeptical of programs at schools that are traditionally considered football schools, and I think it's because on some level, they consider any success those schools have in basketball to be a direct result of the success they've achieved in football. It's almost like they consider it "buying" a good basketball program, rather than building one, and I don't think they respect it as much, whether they realize it or not.

Lastly, a more basketball-friendly arena, better student seating, and a better atmosphere would help our program tremendously. A lot of people file those under "excuses" or say it's a chicken-and-egg issue (you can't get better student seating till more students show up; more students aren't going to show up when they have to sit in the upper mezzanine), but you can't look at Duke, UNC, Kansas, and Kentucky, and tell me that atmosphere isn't part of what has kept them successful all this time. It attracts recruits; it attracts and keeps good coaches; and it provides tremendous home court advantage.

 

I've been on the Tennessee Vols board the last couple of days w/ the Muscamp thing going on. Alot more pics of their men's bball team up there. THey love Pearl and he hasn't done half of what Barnes has done.

One of the biggest detractors of becoming an elite bball program is changing bball culture in texas. it's a football state and our fans aren't that passionate about our bball program. Would take generations to change that. The last 20 years have been a good start.

 

I would say Texas needs to win 1 or 2 championships soon to be elite, right now they are just good.

 

They got 20 more minutes.

 

just so i can clarify something with buster here?

since florida won those 2 unbelievably lucky titles, they get a pass for the rest of their suckiness?...you sir, are insane

they have 2 titles and that is amazing, but when talking about who is elite, what is more important, is constantly being good, showing that every year, and then having success in the tourney

outside of those 2 titles Florida has been a big bag of suck, therefore, yes, those 2 titles are anomalies

this is like the NCAA tourney committee, you have to look at the body of work, they have 2 great wins, but everything else screams we suck ***...therefore, they dont make the cut