2018 Senate (& House)

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Joe Fan, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    And yet I was smart enough to catch, not only you, but one of the supposed experts you cite very clearly falsifying treaties. Of course, I just had to know how to read to do that - didn't take much brains.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2019
  2. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    There is more
    She took some heat so now denies it -- but there are recordings and transcripts
    She seems to expect the media to just go along with this dancing
    And frankly who can blame her for that assumption? it is what the US media normally does fro Democrats

     
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  3. Garmel

    Garmel 2,500+ Posts

    Deez is so far above you intellectually it's not even funny. You're extremely ****** in the cabeza, dude.
     
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  4. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Winebibber

    That's not a nice way to talk to Alex Jones, now.
     
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  5. Garmel

    Garmel 2,500+ Posts

    I think even Alex has better sense than Musburger.
     
  6. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    She hasn't been criticized for a stance on US policy toward Israel. She's claiming that the Jews have hypnotized America into supporting Israel, that Jews who support Israel have dual loyalty and can't be trusted, and that the only reason America supports Israel is that politicians have been bought and paid for.
     
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  7. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Is there any other country that would be invited into Congress to explicitly to criticize a sitting POTUS? Patriots...right?
     
  8. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I missed the part where I said anything about anything remotely connected to this.
     
  9. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Omar has a point. When allegiance to Netanyahu is greater than the POTUS one should question their own patriotism. That was lauded by conservatives on this board. Thou doth protest too much...
     
  10. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    And when you start measuring patriotism by allegiance to a president, I lose all interest in your argument and think you're a hypocrite.

    What am I protesting? I have a hard time keeping up with the imaginary posts you keep attributing to me.
     
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  11. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    She has no point. She hates Jews. It's obvious. She's a Muslim. Nobody should be surprised by this.

    Also, do you believe Iran negotiated in good faith? Do you believe that Israel should just sit there when their country is at risk? Israel is our friend. If you hate them then that's fine; but I don't understand how nonchalant you can be about the realities of the hatred in the Muslim world for Israel. This whole idea of offending Obama is ridiculous. It's PCness that puts their nation at risk because we don't want him to speak about the problem to our Congress.

    George Bush never got one drop of respect from the Left. They abused him daily. I don't understand when Israel's existence and future is at risk that somehow you think Obama's feelings are more important.
     
  12. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    I haven't commented much on Ilhan Omar, because I've been thinking about it over the last few days, but here's what I've concluded.

    Is she a fan of Jews? Probably not. She's a Somali Muslim who focuses a lot of attention on attacking Israel and those who support it. Yes, she's an antisemite.

    Were her comments antisemitic? We hear that they were because she attacked the motives and loyalties of people (Jews, Gentiles, Left, and Right) who are pro-Israel, which is an old tactic of antisemites. Well, unfortunately, that's also our politics nowadays. We view people who disagree with us as not just wrong or misguided but as evil, corrupt, badly motivated, and sometimes disloyal. We attack their character, because that's a lot easier than dealing with issues on the merits. What she said largely follows that line. I'm not saying I agree with her. I certainly don't, but I'm just pointing out the reality of modern political discourse.

    Where I see a problem for Democrats who have defended her or downplayed her comments is that people on the Left in general tend to be quick to interpret statements they don't like as having bigoted intentions or implications. Keep in mind that these are the same people who celebrate calling out "microagressions" and interpret the OK sign as a symbol of white supremacy. They're hypersensitive to this sort of thing and scream "racism" every chance they get. Trump's a racist. Romney was a racist. Bush was a racist. Bob Dole was a racist. Well, if you treat everybody who isn't 100 percent woke as a latter-day Nathan Bedford Forrest, then you shouldn't be too shocked if people think Ilhan Omar is antisemitic when she said something that could easily have come out of David Duke's mouth.

    It's also strange to see Democrats (especially the "diverse" globalist Democrats) questioning anybody's national loyalty as though they embrace or embody national loyalty. Would Ilhan Omar or even many Democrats say they were loyal only to the United States? I really don't see how they could. They generally view such jingoistic and nationalistic claims as dangerous and retrograde.
     
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  13. Horn6721

    Horn6721 Half of seeming clever is keeping your mouth shut.

    I bet Dems cringed when David Duke praised her.
    I do not understand her hatred of Israel and Jews.
    She is from Somalia. There seems to be no connection between the countries.
    Kinda sad that a religion imbues such hatred and equally sad that followers of that religion accept that hatred .
     
  14. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    I highly doubt many of them saw that.
     
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  15. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    This is what drives me nuts about how progressives approach issues like this. There was an annoying poster on here years ago who used to say something along the lines of "the medium is the message" (I think that's how it went, it was some SJW training school gibberish) - and what he said he meant was that it doesn't matter what you intended; it matters how I interpreted it. So basically if you say something that offends me, it's offensive, period, and whether I misinterpreted is irrelevant. However, when that issue is turned around, it's always "that's not what we meant, never intended offense, she just didn't understand the implication, and she's a victim anyway so we should be listening to her more than the people she offended, and you don't have the right to be offended anyway."
     
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  16. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    Party politics causes all these problems. You must be inerrant in your message regardless of what you say. I give the Dems some credit for bristling at her rhetoric.
     
  17. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Some are bristling at her rhetoric, but it's mostly the older and/or Jewish Democrats who are really upset. The younger generation of Democrats are largely supportive or are critical only of her choice of words, not the substance of them. The reason that matters is that it's indicative of where the party is going. It's moving in the direction of hostility toward Israel and Jews. Could that make a political difference? Maybe a little. It could make Florida a little tougher for Democrats to win. New York and California have a lot of Jews, but they're so lopsidedly Democratic that Democrats can afford losing some Jewish votes though it could make a difference in some tighter congressional districts.
     
  18. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I wonder if a migration to the right of Jewish voters would have been enough to give Trump the popular vote. They keep banging the drum to eliminate the electoral college.

    It's interesting Omar is attacking the sacred cow that is Obama over the use of drones. Obama was the one Seattle felt was disrespected by Netanyahu's speech in Congress concerning the Iran negotiations. Obama was accused by many on the right of being a closet Muslim who over-sympathized with the Palestinians. Yet, Omar's world-view appears to be that he was no friend of Islam.
     
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  19. Phil Elliott

    Phil Elliott 2,500+ Posts

    Every time the Dems lose, they want to change the rules.
     
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  20. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Technically, it could have, but it would have taken an enormous shift. Basically Jews would have to vote GOP like blacks vote Democratic.
     
  21. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I have no idea how important Israel is to American Jews. I did a little homework and found some articles arguing Obama was more a friend to Israel than Bush in some instances (Bush opposed bunker busting bombs and the so-called Iron Dome while Obama supported/approved both plus military aid to Israel was reported as being very strong). It is hard to say who really supports Israel more between the two parties. If you believe the Republicans are stronger Zionists then the inference is a Jewish vote for a Democrat is putting America first. But the party differences concerning Israeli policy may be so slight that a Jew can vote Democrat and still be a Zionist. I'm not sure the shift to the right would ever occur. I see the Jewish vote as similar to the white hipster vote for AOC. The civil rights sympathies are too ingrained now.

    Omar stepped in it when she said AIPAC was buying Congress. Then of course when she said a nice smile does not cover up for murder. She's a loose cannon on deck.
     
  22. OUBubba

    OUBubba 2,500+ Posts

    I agree with this post past the 95th percentile. I respect an outlier voice but she continues to say some strange stuff.
     
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  23. horninchicago

    horninchicago 5,000+ Posts

    That big deal that Bush made with Iran showed that he didn't really support Israel.

    Oh, wait....
     
  24. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    It SEEMS she is bringing the Islamic world view to the table and from that distant shore, Obama was just another King of the evil empire. Ironically, that view of Obama almost cheers me up because it brings us together in some sort of internal commonality because Obama was OUR guy vis a vis the Islamic Wars of the past twenty years.

    I was not particularly bothered by Obama's use of drones and possible war crimes as defined by those outside our shores. Maybe I should be. What bothered me was Hillary's vote for the Iraq War Resolution, Obama's stinging attacks on her over it during the 2008 primary and the subsequent amnesia over whether or not she was fit for office as President with respect to her record on the "war on terrorism." Bush was raked over the coals as a war criminal by many on the Left.

    Why can't we just admit all our Presidents have done bad things (ask Noam Chomsky), come together on some level over our problems and just admit we all need to do better?

    Where's Rodney King?
     
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    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  25. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    @NJlonghorn has commented on this before, and he could probably give you a much better explanation than I could for two reasons. First, he's Jewish himself. Second, he likely knows more Jewish people than anybody here. Accordingly, he knows 100 times more about what Jews think and why they vote the way they do than I ever will.

    Nevertheless, here's a link to how Jews have voted over the years. They've been a pretty reliable Democratic constituency for a long time - even gave decisive preferences to McGovern and Mondale. However, once the neoconservatives gained prominence with the GOP (and the GOP became solidly pro-Israel), Jews started to give at least some support to the GOP. That is probably why Reagan and Bush did fairly well with Jews (at least compared with previous Republicans). However, they broke strongly for Bill Clinton and stuck with him and Al Gore (both of whom were pretty solidly pro-Israel), but that support softened some in the last 15 years.

    I think most Jews are more nuanced than the AOC white hipsters. Most hipsters are pretty dumb when it comes to politics and are generally a bunch of hosers. I've literally never known a dumb Jew in my life, and they're generally decent folk. I'm sure there are some dumb ones and bad ones out there, but none have crossed my path. As for their voting, my guess is that Jews probably follow many of the same patterns as non-Jews. Obviously, it's a pretty superficial analysis, but secular Jews are probably more socially liberal, and though they probably care about Israel, it's probably less of a priority for them. More religiously observant Jews are probably more socially conservative (or at least moderate) and put a higher priority on Israel. Like other voters, the secular ones probably lean Democratic, and the more observant ones probably lean GOP with plenty of exceptions. Since the secular outnumber the more observant ones by quite a bit, that means Democrats dominate the Jewish vote.

    Could I see Jews turning to the GOP in big numbers any time soon? No. Could I see their support for Democrats softening a little more in 2020 if people like Ilhan Omar keep talking like David Duke and Joseph Goebbels and getting only tepid resistance from the Party? Yes. Could it be enough to impact any states? Maybe enough to make it harder for Democrats to flip Florida. Nowhere near enough to flip any other states that have substantial Jewish populations (New York, California, New Jersey, Illinois, Massachusetts, Maryland, etc.).
     
  26. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    It's not strange if you consider Omar's political and cultural circles.
     
  27. Horn6721

    Horn6721 Half of seeming clever is keeping your mouth shut.

    Rashida Tlaib Declares Victory Over US Government, Says The Muslims Are Here
    So this whacko called for the impeachment of Trump calling him a MF"cker
    and is bragging
    "Michigan Rep. Rashida Tlaib delivered a stark statement as she delivered the keynote address at the Council on American-Islamic Relations’ 15th annual banquet.
    “‘We always said ‘the Muslims are coming’… I think we’re here!” she said as the crowd cheered in approval.


     
  28. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    It's a consequence of the mindless egalitarianism of the Left and their hatred of Trump. In my opinion, Islam is diametrically opposed to progressive values. But when all you're doing is mining votes, then those progressive values are not as aggressively asserted as they are against white evangelicals.

    Or, they have clustered in that area for years and have managed to gain a toehold on their own.
     
  29. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Did the Trump-Russia 'Collusion Hoax' improperly influence the 2018 midterms?

    Exit polls show that 49% of voters (nearly 1-in-2) believed the Trump Campaign coordinated with the Russian Government during the 2016 election

    Does this mean that the current Democrat majority in the House is illegitimate?
    Is this why the media pushed this false narrative so hard for so long? To achieve this result?
     
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  30. Monahorns

    Monahorns 2,500+ Posts

    I am sure that some of the traditional Republican voting demographic didn't in 2018 because of the collusion myth. But we won't really know until the 2020 elections. If Republicans can keep the the other corollary myths at bay there is a chance to get the House back. But I suspect the Progressives have more mud to sling and many voters still watch TV so some it might stick.
     
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