in all fairness, huck, this is a procedure that has been done for thousands of years. i just see it as a simple difference in some people. i don't care either way. it's not the debate that surprises me, its the vehemence of it.
Meh, don't really see the relevance of the thousands of years comment. Humans have done lots of **** for thousands of years, both good and bad. And I still don't get not understanding the vehemence. In case you haven't noticed, dudes care a lot about their junk. Immediately you have a heated topic. Then you get the two different female perspectives that weigh in on the topic, those based on sex and those based on motherhood. The sex ones come in two subtypes. One that says natural is gross or no good, the other that says cut isn't as good. The first one is a shot across the bow to uncircumcised guys because it's a girl calling a guy's dick gross. See the male perspective above. The second is a shot across the bow because it's a girl saying a guy isn't as good in the sack. See the male perspective above. Then there's the mama bear point of view. As I said before, you're talking about cutting a baby's genitals. A mother that feels strongly in her opinion about this isn't going to be afraid to let you know. I suggest trying to cut a bear cub's penis in front of his mother (my ursine anatomy skills are not exactly up to speed, so forgive me if this is not physiologically possible). She'd probably be a tad vehement about the situation.
If evolution intended for that piece of skin to be eliminated, it would not be there. If you study evolution and believe it as a scientific fact (as I do) you would know it will be eliminated naturallly if worthless. Removing the foreskin is a religious procedure that (as most religious ideas) has out grown its day. We are in the 21st century people, time to leave archaic ideas in the past and begin living as evolved humans. For thousands of years people were stoned to death for miniscule crimes...we don't do that anymore either.
Your counterpoint doesn't have the foreskin listed...hmm. Also, Evolution doesn't happen over night but these things will gradually be eliminated with no use.
Ugh...to each his own but I couldnt imagine not being Circumcised or not having my Children that way if I ever have them
This topic reminds me of the meat eating vs vegetarians debate. The vegetarians think the meat eaters are evil people who are going to hell and the meat eaters are fine with whatever you choice one makes. Seems like about the same. Somehow all of us are butchers and bad parents for having our children circumcised where as those who don't agree with it are saints and above everyone else.
I understand that perspective, but just like with the vegetarian / omnivore debate it all depends on what side you're on. In the veggie debate, you have the veggies lashing out at the murderous barbarians. They seem crazy. But then you realize that the other side calls them crazy and dumb. They're morons for not eating meat, there's all this evidence that we're supposed to eat a combination. Animals aren't people and you're an idiot for treating them like that, etc. On the flip side, the veggies see that the other side is calling them idiots, morons, etc. and are ridiculing their sense of morality. But if they took the time to look at it, they would see that they're calling the other side murderous barbarians. Both sides bring emotion into the debate because they've dealt with the crap from the other side for a long time away from this board and they bring that emotion to this forum. Circumcision is the exact same thing. The cutters react to being called mutilating barbarians. This obviously offends them. But if they took the time to think about it, they would realize that they are calling the other side dirty, gross, and ugly. And they're talking about guys' dicks. Doesn't get any more personal than that. Meanwhile, the noncutters react to having their dicks called dirty, gross, and ugly. But if they took the time to step back they would see that they're calling the other side mutilating barbarians. Not exactly constructive criticism. And, once again, both sides bring emotion from outside the board into this forum and these threads are the result. The only thing I disagree with in all of this is the holier-than-thou aspect of the veggies and the noncutters (instead of trying to explain their position rationally and "educate" if that's their goal) and the woe-is-me victimhood aspect of the omnivores and cutters (instead of realizing that they're being just as attack-oriented and hurtful in their arguments as their opponents). Signed, An omnivorous noncutter
Like it or not, evolution is a theory and that is a fact. Your faith and belief in it as proven science has an overwhelmingly religious zeal to it for such an evolved species. No offense, I don't care one way or the other. Just don't like to make light of peoples beliefs, yours or others. Your belief is no more or less ridiculous than most of the people you are making fun of. That is an evolved person's take on it. I could be wrong. Nobody knows anything for sure yet, we still need to keep evolving I guess. In the meantime, let's keep things in perspective like an evolved species should.
That a ball will fall when you drop it from the top of a building is a "theory" as well but find a reputable scientist who doesn't believe in evolution...
gravity is actually a law, and not a theory, but I agree with you about the indisputable truth of it unless you think all of the evidence was a "plant" by god to test us.
That is correct it is a natural law. We do not and we should not teach superstition alongside science. "Intelligent design" is not even a theory. It is more like a mentality. "It admits of no verification or falsity and does not deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as a series of hypotheses and experiments that have served us well in analyzing the fossil record, the record of molecular biology, and—through the unraveling of the DNA strings—our kinship with other species."
Here we go again.... The last time I posted, I mentioned that I know someone who went into a coma when they got snipped. I know that the chances of that are like one in a gagillion, but he was the one. Scary stuff IMO.
Ryan: well put. and i would add that i get IRATE at my wife's grandfather who always wants to debate that evolution is jut a theory, and hasn't been proven, so why not teach creationism! LOOK OLD MAN, teach it all you want , but it can not be science. it is not the merit of the theory, but the nature and means of its testing/proof.
You misunderstand population statistics. It has a very small health advantage spread over a large group. This is sometimes expressed as a small probability of better health for the individual. In fact it means, in just almost every case, there will be no advantage. Some lottery tickets pay. It is not proven that buying one will yield a benefit.
I have two boys, both cut. Wife didn't want it but I insisted for solely the lockeroom reasons. In 6th grade, two guys weren't cut and probably didn't think they were different until the first shower. They were ridiculed indefinitely, and I mean, indefinitely all the way through high school. With all the other **** adolescence brings, didn't want the possibility of that experience for either of them.
