Late-term abortion and uncompromosing Democrats

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by NJlonghorn, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. NJlonghorn

    NJlonghorn 1,000+ Posts

    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    I think the liberals see the slippery slope here. The more that's learned about abortion (especially knowing the condition, viability, and appearance of the fetus), the harder it is to defend. It used to be that very late term abortion bans were reasonable. Then it was third trimester abortions. Now it's 20 weeks. They know where this is heading, and eventually, there could come a time when the practice is largely discredited and a basis for real shame. They don't want to see that happen, because they know what monsters they'll look like.

    Nevertheless, as pro-life as I am, I'm consistent. Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided, but I'm not a fan of national laws either way, unless we're truly talking about interstate scenarios - taking minors across state lines, etc. The issue should be resolved at the state level as it was for almost 200 years prior to Roe. If Texas wants to ban it, that's their business. If Massachusetts wants to allow our even subsidize it, that's their business.
     
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  3. Larry T Spider

    Larry T Spider 100+ Posts

    I have always said that the republicans will win the abortion debate as technology and medicine improve. This is certainly true for third trimester abortions. If Im a pub, I dont even consider arguing anything else in the abortion debate other than third trimester abortions. Keep hammering that point home.
     
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  4. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 5,000+ Posts

    I think you could potentially get alignment on limiting/eliminating 3rd term abortions. I'm not sure that the Repubs want to eliminate abortion. Like immigration/welfare for the Dems, it's an issue that fires up the base. Notice the most recent vote was for limiting abortion to 20 weeks rather than the beginning of the 3rd trimester. To me, that wasn't a coincidence. The Repubs didn't want to pass any legislation.
     
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  5. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    As cynical as this is, I think there's a lot of truth to it. To me, it's a lot like the civil rights agenda. If race discrimination went a way, that would be great for the country, but there is a very large cottage industry of civil rights activists, commentators, writers, and opportunists of various types who would have no way to make a living. Abortion is the same way. If the country truly reached a consensus on the issue (one way or the other), what would happen to the abortion politics cottage industry? I think that most rank and file pro-life activists (and most civil rights activists) are well-meaning, but do I think that some in leadership positions are not? You bet.
     
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  6. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Aborting a fetus that would be viable outside the womb is horrific and I'm a Democrat-leaning centerist with no interest in supporting that. I guess my political stand has alwas been "safe, legal and rare" but I've seen too many lovely persons born in situations where abortion made sense from a family or unwed teen's perspective. I favor contraception and planned births and every effort to provide support and adoption services to make giving birth an option for pregnant moms in trouble.

    I'm not as troubled by early term abortions because there are numerous natural miscarriages, but keeping them legal is not a cause that excites me.
     
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  7. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

  8. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    This is something that I think both party supporters see - a disconnect between what they really believe and the hyper-partisan amplified positions that take hold in Washington and attract the angry people. Let's face it, Obama and Clinton aren't hanging out with a bunch of moderates who are going to tell them that they're appalled by the idea that we would support late-term abortions.

    The problem is that most of the ruling Dem class comes from a generation which sees abortion as a question of power and control. "Our bodies, our rights." I actually think it's a pretty strategically sound response (albeit horrific to me) to say that while the child is in the womb, we're sticking by that philosophy" - because once you admit that there's a point where the "fetus" becomes a "child", you've really lost your credibility when talking about abortion as something that should be fine and acceptable and a comfortable thing for people to consider. This is why you get the idiotic comments from fringe feminists referring to fetuses as "tumors" or "growths" or other objectifying terms. I just don't believe that more than 5 percent or so of this country believe that or want decisions to be made with that mindset - and yet those are the people at the discussion table making policy.

    Obama's statement that the "safe, legal and rare" dogma should be dropped and made "safe and legal" was, at least, an honest reflection of how many on the far left feel. But the more emboldened they've become to express that, the more people are taking a good long look at what it's costing us as a society.
     
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  9. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 5,000+ Posts

    I was with you through this point then you jumped into the partisan Prodigal Horn. I personally think most would agree that abortions after the point of viability is a bad thing. The problem is both parties play to their extremes. The Dems play to the slippery slope fears of the feminists while the Repubs play to the any abortion is murder crowd.

    Various medical groups place viability at ~24-26 weeks. So, what did the R's just propose? Limit abortions to 20 weeks. Why did they chose to set their limit under the medical establishments viability assessment? Furthermore, in various states they've advocated for laws that all but outlaw abortion services clinics.

    Meanwhile, the sit back and simply point to Roe v. Wade as the law of the land and use witchhunts like against PP and state laws to support their slippery slope belief.

    Honestly, if we could simply limit it to 26 weeks would everyone stop the madness? I know that's a pipedream but I firmly believe the majority of Americans would support that. Of course, if we did get to that point the R's would lose their civil rights equivalent to gin up the base.
     
  10. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Ummmm... I'm just responding to the OP.

    " about how the Democratic Party is on the wrong side of history by supporting abortion on demand in the third trimester. They are taking an extreme position even though most of their support comes from voters with a much more moderate viewpoint. That will eventually come back to haunt them."

    If you want to start a thread about how people who believe fetuses are live children before viability are "fringe extremists" - which you appear to believe - then I'm more than happy to weigh in on that topic.
     
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  11. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 5,000+ Posts

    Should I point out that the Third Trimester officially starts out at 27 weeks thus the most recent Republican proposal was to limit abortions well into the 2nd trimester (20 weeks) isn't a middle of the road stance either. So, one could easily make the argument that R's don't want to limit 3rd trimester limits but much further into 2nd trimester.

    By all means, limit it to the first 2 trimesters (with rape/incest/life of mother exceptions). The R's haven't proposed that yet that I'm aware of. You will get resistance from the previously mentioned "fringe left" but the survey data shows that viability is tipping point towards support for restrictions.
     
  12. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

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  13. majorwhiteapples

    majorwhiteapples 5,000+ Posts

    The legal ruling and following rulings state the viability of the baby to live outside the womb at 23 and 24 weeks.

    So with medical advances that number is decreasing. 20 weeks is not out of the realm of medicine today.

    In 100 years the period from 1973 to whatever year people come to their senses will have killed more people/kids/babies/fetuses than all wars/holocausts/terroist acts ever committed in the world combined. It will be a very dark spot on our era of history!!!
     
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    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
  14. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    [​IMG]
     
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    • Funny Funny x 1
  15. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

     
    • WTF? WTF? x 1
  16. Monahorns

    Monahorns 1,000+ Posts

    Many ex-employees of Planned Parenthood have serious emotional issues after they get out. It says a lot about the organization that they have to use manipulation techniques to get women to do the things they really want done. Its like convincing a women to do porn.
     
  17. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

     
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  18. Statalyzer

    Statalyzer 10,000+ Posts

    Maybe, but only if they ever lose control of the debate framing among those more moderate viewpoints. So far, they've been pretty successfully at keeping most of the reasonable discourse in this thread on the back-burner, and making it be a "The other side are largely sexist ******** who desire to control women and believe that men should be in charge of female bodies" issue. As long as they are able to frame conservatives this way, they'll keep the moderate left on their side no matter how extreme they get.
     
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  19. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Yep. And we need to stop hurting ourselves in this. Stupid **** like this doesn't help.
     
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  20. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts


    [​IMG]
     
    • WTF? WTF? x 1
  21. Monahorns

    Monahorns 1,000+ Posts

    It's is torture murder and people who do that should be put to death for it. Probably through the same method they used. I really can't think of a more heinous act.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  22. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Of course, they could be prosecuted, but somebody would have to turn them in.

    Personally, I'm opposed to all abortion that isn't necessary to save the mother's life, though I'm willing to compromise to a point on things like rape. However, if someone isn't willing to go that far and is totally cool with early abortions, here's a good rule of thumb. If the doctor has to affirmatively do something beyond simple removal to kill the fetus (poison it, dismember it, crush its skull and evacuate its brain, etc.), he's a killer. It's pretty hard to logically reach any other conclusion.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  23. Monahorns

    Monahorns 1,000+ Posts

    Yeah. I'm not talking about mothers or even doctors performing doctors. This is a very low bar. I am just talking about people who murder babies who are born.
     
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  24. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    Yep. Frankly, it's nauseating that this is even discussed. Ten years ago, I never would have thought that infanticide and where people go to the bathroom would be serious political issues.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  25. horninchicago

    horninchicago 2,500+ Posts

    I'm 50 now. Maybe 20-30 years ago, I fell for the rape reasoning for an abortion. But, seriously, just like with marijuana for glaucoma, how many women who get knocked up will simply claim rape to get an abortion? I mean, there is an epidemic across all ages, it seems, of glaucoma in this country now.
     
  26. Run Pincher

    Run Pincher 500+ Posts

    I would hope many states would pass a law requiring a police report be filed to claim rape as the reason, and filing a false police report is a crime.
     
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  27. horninchicago

    horninchicago 2,500+ Posts

    The way things are these days, I would doubt that would be written in any legislation.
     
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  28. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez 10,000+ Posts

    I'm not a fan either way. Rape or no rape, the baby is innocent. However, I'm willing to make the compromise if I could ban the far more common scenario in which some dude gets a girl pregnant and she wants to abort because she doesn't want a baby. However, for the exception to be allowed, I would require the rape to be reported to the police.

    I'd also make it much easier and cheaper both to put a baby up for adoption and for someone to adopt a baby. The fact that it costs thousands or even tens of thousands to adopt is absurd.
     
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  29. Monahorns

    Monahorns 1,000+ Posts

    I agree Deez. Adoption should be free basically. I get needing background checks, but if the government didn't give financial aid to foster parents and the like, there wouldn't be incentive to take kids for personal benefit. Becoming a parent is a large enough cost to dissuade bad actors.
     
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  30. Hollandtx

    Hollandtx 250+ Posts

    I was 100% black and white on abortion unless the mother's health was in jeopardy. I saw a few members of my sorority use abortion as birth control. One girl had 3 that I know of. That is simply disgusting.

    Then, my eldest niece, who lead an extremely sheltered life, and was a virgin, was date raped her freshman year of college.
    Luckily, I had a bad feeling her naivety around guys might find her in a bad situation, so we had talked about what to do in the worst case. She went and got a morning after pill, then reported it to the Dean of her university. It is a snooty, private University in the south, and the Dean basically told her he would give the boy a good scolding, but not to report it.
    My niece headed down to the police station and reported it. But, I have to admit, had she become pregnant at barely 18, with her future planned out, I don't know if I could or would have talked her out of an abortion. I hate to even admit it, but, she in no way led him on, and even though it was a date rape, it was not without physical damage, and mental damage.

    I don't know how many 18 year olds would have gone beyond the Dean to the police. It was an incredibly embarrassing incident for her. I can't even imagine 14-16-ish year olds reporting a rape. There is a lot to it.
    I would have to amend the police report to an older age. What age, I don't know, but I think it would have to be out of the teen years.
     
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