This team

Discussion in 'Men’s Basketball' started by Vol Horn 4 Life, Dec 14, 2016.

  1. Brad Austin

    Brad Austin 2,500+ Posts

    LOL. So you're telling me that in the last 33 years, there wasn't a team with worse roster circumstances that outperformed a possible 19-loss team this year?

    So youth in college basketball is a solid excuse to accept 19 losses? The sport that is the king of one-and-done's? Wow. SMH

    Ahhhh, here we go with the Strong-style enabler, excuses mentality again. :puke:
    SabreHorn likes this.
  2. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    We went 5-5 against the SEC in the challenge so I dont think we are the toughest in the country this year. That's the ACC. We are either the 2nd or 3rd best conference. That said, I agree with your overall points that we have probably never had a team this young in a conference this good.

    As I've said repeatedly for two years, I never expected to make the NCAA Tournament this year whether shaka or barnes were coaching due to the turnover we could see coming two years ago (though imagine how badly our fans would be flipping out if we went 16-16 and missed the NCAA tournament under Barnes this year).

    My expectations were as follows:
    2014-15: Sweet 16 (suffered a key injury so i gave Barnes a pass since we made the NCAA Tournament)
    2015-16: Sweet 16 (suffered a key injury so I gave Shaka a pass since we made the NCAA Tournament)
    2016-17: NIT/CBI (expectations look like they will not be met, though not over until the fat lady sings. I agree with Brad that losing 18 games would be a bit ridiculous since a few losses were not quality losses.)
    2017-18: Make the NCAA Tournament and win 20+ games.
    2018-19: Sweet 16 OR top 4 in Big 12 & good NCAA tournament seed even if we are upset in first two rounds (basically a good season showing we are back).

    This year would be like Strong's 2015 season. Shaka should not be fired, he has time, but he did not buy any favors. If we make the Sweet 16 next year/have a great year/exceed my expectations, that would more than make up for this year. Like Strong's 2015, this season just hurts confidence moving forward, but there is still plenty of time to turn it around. Hopefully we can have a good showing in the Big 12 tournament and salvage something of this season.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  3. caryhorn

    caryhorn 2,500+ Posts

    OK, Brad. I'll bite. I am 68 years old and have actually been watching Texas sports for more than 33 years. No, there has never been a team here that has at least two, and usually three, and sometimes 4 freshmen on the floor for all 40 minutes of the game. Yancy and Shaq are the only seniors on the team that have played meaningful minutes, and Yancy has been ineffectual in the minutes he's played.

    And its only been about 15 years that the one and done has been a major phenomenon here. So we had upper classmen, and no burning need to rush kids into playing. So we can say with confidence the years prior to 2002 never had 2 to 4 freshmen on the court for the entire game. And we can say with certainty that there has not been a full season where at least 2 freshmen, with no true point guard among any of the five on the court, played the entire 40 minutes of every game.

    For the most part we have had a senior or junior or two, or maybe a super point guard, that could pull the load to at least get us to 17 or so wins. Abrams, Felix, Tucker, Meonke, Mimms, Thompson, James, Johnson, etc. Consistent, if not showy. We don't have anyone to fill that bill now. Not even close.

    I will bet my house that there has never been a season where the top 5 players graduated, and the next year we had 2-4 freshmen on the court the entire 40 minutes. Which is where we are now.

    So laugh if you want, but the youth on this team, and the minutes they are forced to play, is indeed an anomaly at Texas.

    Next year with the edition of Coleman and the big transfer post man we should be better. If Allen stays (and he won't) we will be sweet 16, no question. I hope that Coleman will be just the first of a string of great point guards Shaka gets who can trigger his offense. Barnes deserves credit for recruiting a string of excellent points that elevated everyone's play, and won tons of games for him. TJ, PJ, Gibson, etc.
    old65horn and Sangre Naranjada like this.
  4. bystander

    bystander 2,500+ Posts

    It seems to be the unanimous consensus of everyone I've heard speak on that matter that this team doesn't have a point guard. To me, that's like having Brock Osweiller as your quarterback. Now, why didn't Shaka recruit one for this year? I supposed we could pick at that.
  5. blonthang

    blonthang 1,000+ Posts

    Job security in coaching?:

    Just start and play freshmen.

    "They're sooo young."

    Barnes 1st team was so wanting he placed an ad in the Daily Texan for students to try out.

    Texas won the Big 12 that year.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  6. caryhorn

    caryhorn 2,500+ Posts

    He had very little depth, right. Needed scrubs to scrimmage against as I recall. Had a very experienced team. Check out the roster and see if you can find one freshman on it.
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
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  7. blonthang

    blonthang 1,000+ Posts

    Ws v Ls.

    Bottom line.

    Get out the milk and cookies and participation medals I guess.

    Tired of multimillion dollar coaches given excuses when coaches at schools with FAR fewer resources pass THE University of Texas in the slow lane.

    Edit: No point guard.

    Okay, who's fault is that?

    Not talking about a 5 or 4 or even 3 star point guard. Just a ******* point guard who can dish it to the bigs.

    NO point guard prep player of adequate ability in the entire US and Canada could be talked into Austin?
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  8. Statalyzer

    Statalyzer 10,000+ Posts

    SEC went 3-0 at the bottom though, not sure that means much.
  9. caryhorn

    caryhorn 2,500+ Posts

    OK. If the point you are making is that he did not pursue, and did not sign a kid who could play the point adequately, then I agree. That has proven to be a mistake, and a costly one.

    If you are saying that the University made a terrible mistake by hiring him, and that our BB program will inevitably become a failure, as did our FB program under Strong, then I think your logic is flawed. Shaka did fine last year, as well as Barnes many years. One and done. I am willing to give him a couple of more years to see how he responds to this disappointing season. He has responded so far by recruiting a top ten class with a top ten point guard. That's ok with me.
    This a real knee jerk overreaction in my book. The guy took the team to the big dance in his first year. He lost the entire, repeat entire, starting five, including his point guard which he thought was coming back. So his team struggles mightily this year. And you are surprised?????

    Under these circumstances, this season should not be surprising.
  10. old65horn

    old65horn 500+ Posts

    If you mean the bottom of the Big12 went 0-3 vs SEC, I thought Okie Light won. Okie Lite is in the bottom 3 aren't they?
  11. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada 5,000+ Posts

    Thank you cary, for expanding on my point in my absence.
    caryhorn likes this.
  12. old65horn

    old65horn 500+ Posts

    I am a little optimistic that we may get one more year out of Allen. He is a very intelligent person who values education. The millions may prevail, but I have some hope. Excellent post. I go a little further back than you. I remember Gilbert, Humphrey and Jay Arnette. Not really sure that is a good thing most days.
    caryhorn likes this.
  13. blonthang

    blonthang 1,000+ Posts

    I posted a bit in anger; just frustrated in this year's oncourt performances.

    I'm not suggesting Shaka should be fired; just that he's not doing what I/we/us expected at this point.

    Not expecting a Sweet Sixteen, just a decent product on the hardwood.

    I hope he gets it going sooner rather than later.

    Hook 'em
    Win, caryhorn and Htown77 like this.
  14. ViperHorn

    ViperHorn 5,000+ Posts

    I am a big fan of Smart, and think of lot of him, but I am afraid that he hit the same wall as Strong - in over his head at this level. Hopefully he will be able to turn it around and not drive it further into the ground.
  15. caryhorn

    caryhorn 2,500+ Posts

    Good point 65.

    You know, he seems really smart, and I have not seen anything but poise, focus and a fine level headed attitude from Allen. I know he's got a lot of improvement needed to round out his game, but he is better than I thought he would be.

    By the way, its nice to know another poster here is in my generation!
  16. old65horn

    old65horn 500+ Posts

    Carry, Just barely. When I turned 70, I thought, I have rounded the last turn on the final lap, and I am headin' home.
    caryhorn likes this.
  17. LonghornMD

    LonghornMD 100+ Posts

    I feel similar to you, Viper. Big fan of Shaka, and was happy about the hire. However I don't get the impression that he is in over his head, like Charlie obviously was. Differences: Shaka continues coaching and "educating" during games where the outcome is already a lose. (That being said, the basketball team's loses have been much, much closer than the football team's loses under Charlie, which is an important distinction as well.) Charlie would get a glazed over, "deer in headlights" look during loses, particularly blow-outs (which there were a lot of). He stopped teaching or coaching during those games. He froze up. That's when it's so important to continue coaching. When you continue coaching in those situations, it shows that you recognize the problems and are going about trying to fix them..... instead of looking lost, confused, and giving up. Image and perception are extremely important so that you don't lose the fan base and most importantly your players. If the players think you don't have any answers, they will immediately lose faith in the system and lose respect for a coach that is asking them to run through walls for him. Charlie didn't know how to fix the X's and O's. Shaka, I believe, does know how to fix on-court problems.

    Another recent Texas coach that gave-up on coaching when his team was getting blown-out was Barnes. His last couple years at Texas looked awful for him and the program. He would sit down and took the "let the players figure it out" position when they were getting their heads beat in. It looked terrible for the program, and sent a bad message to his players. That's why so many of them left early, transferred, or continued their unenthusiastic college careers without any heroic efforts. I was really shocked that Barnes was still able to recruit so well with such a piss-poor coaching performance by him in the last few years. But once the coach throws in the towel, he needs to go. He should never, ever quit on a team during a season or during a single game. Barnes did that 2 to 3 years in a row, and should have been fired sooner. Charlie didn't quit per se; he just had no idea what was going on, what needed fixing, or how to go about fixing it ("the kids just need to play better"...... wow, insightful).

    Shaka is different, I think.
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  18. blonthang

    blonthang 1,000+ Posts

    Also, if I may point out, the HC job in college football is much, much different from basketball.

    A basketball HC's DIRECT communication, contact, direction, spirit, with his players DURING the entirety of the game is critical.

    A college football HC might as well be in the press box --- okay a bit of exaggeration, but assistant coaches, coordinators, position coaches are the ones doing one-on-one with players for the 4 quarters. A HC just can't do it --- too many players with too many roles.

    At any point during a basketball game the HC only has to go eye-to-eye, in-your-face, draw it up on the white board to 5 players. And he can talk to and look in the eyes of all 5 during a timeout to make sure he's getting through.

    Impossible for 11 players on D or O for football.

    Certainly obvious, but it's why IMHO a screaming Bobby Knight or Frank Martin or even Coach K can work at times.

    Bo Pellini style coaching in football may not work at all. Mostly just makes the HC look out of his element.

    Hook 'em

    Oh, and P.S. as for baseball, the HC may as well be filming a cooking show. Sorry, just a bit of humor, not meant to dump on Augie, just baseball is even moreso with regard to the skipper being mostly out of sight, out of mind, if things are all going well.
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2017
  19. LonghornMD

    LonghornMD 100+ Posts

    Agree with your points, including the differences in coaching styles based on sport. However, regardless of the sport, a coach's demeanor on the sideline is of the upmost important. Even football coaches, while the demeanor may be traditionally more stoic, need to instill confidence in their team. Confidence that their week of preparation and the coaches' game plan are on point and capable of being successful. And when things turn south during a game (which will invariably happen in every game in every sport), the players are confident in the coaches' abilities to diagnose the problems and right the ship.
  20. blonthang

    blonthang 1,000+ Posts

  21. txlandagent

    txlandagent 500+ Posts

    The average player experience of the Texas roster is 0.92 years (342nd out of 351 D-1 teams). Iowa State is the 5th oldest team in D-1 at 2.59 years. We just ran them wire to wire. Youth related inconsistency is our key issue, plain and simple.

    I turned tonight's game on expecting to see some ugly basketball and I would have bet money on a loss against a good ISU squad that beat Kansas. What I saw tonight was a marked improvement on a lot of levels. I saw a lot of hustle and heart and tonight, probably for the first time all season, everyone did their job. There was considerably less of the breakdown of fundamentals we've seen all season and a commitment to playing full tilt until the end. I don't know why we haven't been able to finish like this all season (youth?). If we had, we could easily have been a 15-9 team talking about bubbles and brackets.

    If Allen stays, add Osetkowski and Coleman/#7 recruiting class, we could be a deep tourney run team next season. If Allen leaves I'm worried it may be just another season of running chemistry challenged lineups, unless someone has a breakout season. Shaka and co. need to do major work in this off season.
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  22. caryhorn

    caryhorn 2,500+ Posts

    It was a great win. We had no business beating a talented, senior laden ISU team who had just beaten KU at Phog Allen Fieldhouse. Amazing win for the young horns:hookem2:.

    Same bugaboos kept it close: as with lots of games this season, 10 or 12 at least, turnovers at key times really hurt. To his credit Roach did drive consistently to the hoop, got fouled and made about half of his free throws. Roach is having trouble finishing on the drive. He dribbles too much, resulting in TO's or getting trapped too easily, throwing up a prayer which kills the offense. If he can find a way to finish at the hoop, and cut down on over dribbling he will be much more effective. I'm sure he knows this, and is working hard on these parts of his game.

    The best play tonight for me was when Jones dished a perfect bounce pass to a driving Yancey for the two handed dunk late in the game. Yancey had by far his best game of the season. If he plays like this the rest of the season, we'll win more than we lose. And to me, Jones is clearly our best option now at the point.

    It is great seeing Allen get better and better. He made some dynamic slam putbacks and a seriously acrobatic alley oop dunk where he had to reach behind him to gather in the pass before slamming it
    home. Then he made two pressure free throws to win. He is a cool calm player in crunch time. And just a freshman. Dang. He is good!

    Bottom line, CONGRATS ON A FINE WIN!! :hookem2:
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
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  23. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    Really nice job tonight against an ISU team that clearly wasn't ready to strap it on when they got here. I don't see us beating that team if they show up focused, but that's how you get upsets. We took advantage of it, and most importantly, held on when the Cyclones were playing really good basketball down the stretch. (Not so much on the defensive end though!)

    We might have a little depth next year, which would be nice. People talk about our youth, but at the same time, we're really only playing six people for substantial minutes. The next three off the bench - Banks, Isom and Young - represent significant drop-offs. (Although great to see Isom knock that shot down. We really could use some shooting off the bench and it would be great if he could be more aggressive in that regard.)

    It's just painful to watch Roach play PG in the final 5 minutes of the game. It's not a question of when he's going to toss the ball into the stands, dribble across his body against tight defense and get it stolen, or drive into a pack of defenders and drop the ball. The question is when and how often.

    Jones needs to be running the show. I am at a loss for why he's not.
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  24. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    Great win! Hope to see us pick up some more against Okie State, OU and Kstate before we enter the murder stretch our last 4 games.

    I especially want to see us play well and beat Okie State so we can build a little consistency at the end of the year. We have not won two games in a row since November 14 and 17 when we started the year 3-0!!!!! Picking up our first Big 12 road win and second win in a row Saturday would definitely help in building confidence in this young team moving forward. I know this is premature, but if we could go on a 4 in a row run here that would really show improvement at the end of the year even if we lost the four games after.
  25. old65horn

    old65horn 500+ Posts

    Totally agree, He had a good game up until the last 4 minutes. A lazy pass that resulted in an ISU layup. A total prayer, which he had avoided until then, that luckily Shaq put back + 1. I do not understand how a guard cannot shoot FT's. I am so glad it was Allen shooting FT's to win the game instead of Roach. Roach did a great job on Morris and Davis on Thomas on the last shot. Hats off to Smart for game coaching and the team for a game long effort on EVERY lose ball.

    Now they have to go to Okie light to play the hottest team in the Big 12. They have come from the basement to making the dance.

    ISU did do a great job on Davis. Thomas and Long were always close to him so he could not catch. square up and step into a three the entire game. When he can do that, he makes 50% of his treys.
    caryhorn likes this.
  26. moondog_LFZ

    moondog_LFZ 1,000+ Posts

    I have begun to think the best place for Roach is on the bench.
    He is usually out of control, making bad decisions and turning the ball over.
    He did good driving to the basket but can't sink a free throw.
    For that matter, he can't sink any shot.
    But a great win, nonetheless.
  27. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 2,500+ Posts

    And now back to the same old roller coaster. That OSU game was brutal. I will say the signature of a young team is inconsistency....highs and lows followed by more highs. I will say that the high points seem to be getting higher indicating that the team may be moving toward a more consistent path.
  28. Htown77

    Htown77 2,500+ Posts

    It looks like winning two games in a row remains elusive.

    We are 0-11 in games played away from home this year. We have a 13 away from home losing streak dating back to last year's ncaa and big 12 tournament appearances. Our last win away from home was @Oklahoma State in the last game of the regular season last year.

    @OU Tuesday is our best shot for a road win.

    The good news for the Kansas State game Saturday is we are 10-4 at home.
  29. car54

    car54 1,000+ Posts

    Forget the Navy Seal Training...Send the boys to watch the girls play !!!!!!!!!
    Win likes this.
  30. car54

    car54 1,000+ Posts

    Yep......UConn women lost about 5 or 6 players to the WNBA ( half their team is Fr & Soph ) and they are on a real roller coaster season......
    Its time to stop this YOUTH crap excuse.
    We are 25 games in on a 31 game season...If our players/coaches were as good as advertised we would not be looking like we are. Its either the talent/mentality of the players or its the coaches......or both. We might need to look at what the football program did if things aren't greatly improved next season....Someone needs to be on a very HOT seat next year.

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