Two thoughts under one heading 1)Update Texas QB transfers 2) Targeting

Discussion in 'On The Field' started by 22Horn, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. 22Horn

    22Horn 250+ Posts

    Would someone with credible knowledge provide an update on the potential transfers of Shane, Rising and Thompson, maybe others? This new 'transfer protocol' could put us and a few other teams, in a bind relative to QB Depth. When do the players have to make a decision? What substantiates the waiver rule to grant 'hardships' for some of these ie Fields, Martell and others that are contemplating transfer? This 'protocol' needs to be cleaned up and allowed only in extreme cases; commitments need to be honored but only allowed to be broken in very extreme cases.

    Also, the targeting rules need cleaning up to at least be called consistently but that is hard since each ref sees it with a different set of eyes. Defensive players are at some disadvantage when the offensive player already sees DP coming in so he then lowers his head that often instigates the 'targeting' call. Then the refs spend what seems like hours making a judgement. Players always need to be provided with a consistent safe environment that will not alter the physicality of the game.

    'I signed my LOI but now I'm not getting to play according to planned expectation so I will just walk away and find something that makes me feel better'
     
  2. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Transferring is a game of musical chairs. There are opportunities out there, but some players are going to go to a new school and find themselves second on the depth chart at a new place when injury would have opened up playing time at the school they left.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  3. Horns11

    Horns11 5,000+ Posts

    So why should coaches be allowed to bolt whenever? Why are scholarships only 1-year guarantees? If I was a college student and not getting my non-athletic expectations met by my course of study, should I be "bound" to that college for the remainder of my education?

    I'll agree that kids like Martell think a little highly of themselves, but if someone wants to follow the rules and transfer, I don't see why that's a problem. The only people it messes with are fans whose depth charts and expectations get bent out of shape.
     
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  4. bystander

    bystander 5,000+ Posts

    I'm hearing Rising is going to OV Utah.
     
    • poop poop x 2
  5. 22Horn

    22Horn 250+ Posts

    That would be a good stop for him since he is a west coast kid....good luck to each of them but I sure hope we don't have an empty qb chart after Sam in '19
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. X Misn Tx

    X Misn Tx 1,000+ Posts

    I realize that player contracts and coaching contracts have relevance with each other. But I don't like it as the easy out argument. It just derails the conversation.

    I have employees that, by policy, need to give 2 weeks notice to get their PTO paid. I have employees that, by policy, need to give 30 days notice to get their PTO paid.

    Why? Because different levels of employ have different expectations/requirements.

    We're not some big commune.

    It has to do with ease of replacement, impact on the business, etc.

    EDIT:: How much does that player, who got a full year of education, room, board, and living paid for have to pay back? How much did they contribute to the revenues sitting on the bench? It takes most players 2 years to make any meaningful impact on the field and, subsequently, the team revenues. Maybe they can transfer if they agree to pay back the thousands of dollars in college expenses they got for free.
     
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    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  7. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 5,000+ Posts

    X,

    I have no problem with you post, but for me, and I think the vast majority of sports fans. will be how the NCAA handles the UGA/Ohio State situation. That can become the biggest travesty if the gutless NCAA doesn't grow a pair before going to war with the not-so-reverand Jesse and Al Sharpton, and you know they're coming.

    If the NCAA rules the wrong way, all a kid has to do is give some guy a ticket and $250-500 to yell at him during a timeout, instant transfer with no punishment. Can you imagine the can of worms college athletics will become?
     
  8. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    Sabre
    Sorry I missed it
    What UGA/OSU situation?
     
  9. moondog_LFZ

    moondog_LFZ 1,000+ Posts

    ALL the players give up their time, energy and sacrifice their bodies to injury in the weight room, practice field, game day, etc.
    Whether a starter or on the scout team, every scholarship player contributes.
    They owe nothing.
     
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  10. Sangre Naranjada

    Sangre Naranjada Liquor Man

    A QB wants to transfer from UGA to tOSU. No problem there.

    But - he wants to be given a hardship waiver (meaning he doesn't sit a year for transferring) because some guy in the stands used the n word in reference to him getting onto the field. "Put the __________ in!"

    If that's all it takes to be given a hardship waiver, then yes, the NCAA has just opened a monstrous can of worms.
     
  11. dukesteer

    dukesteer 2,500+ Posts

    This evolving epidemic can be stemmed if one of two things (or better yet, both) were to happen:

    High profile coaches would have the courage to express their dissatisfaction with the practice, and make it clear that they look for players in the recruiting process that aren’t afraid of competition, and that will honor their commitment. Basically a shot over the bow.

    Secondly, if some of the coaches on the receiving end express concern about the practice, again it will send a message.

    The Rising situation just irks me. The kid chose Texas for a reason and he has four years of eligibility left. My take is that he is selfish, and that he also fears the completion. I see a character issue.
     
  12. 22Horn

    22Horn 250+ Posts

    Duke, many would agree about character issue.......selfishness is not a positive attribute in any place in life. Put others first and let your talents rise to the top
     
  13. wadster

    wadster 5,000+ Posts

    The Rising situation just doesn't make sense. He had to know either Sam or Shane was going to start and the odds were that Sam was going to at least start his Sr. year. So why come here unless you were willing to sit? He's a perfect fit in our offense and still gets 2 years to start. He'll at most get 1 extra year and that's assuming he can win the starting job at wherever he goes after sitting a year. Here he's in the program, not the new kid.

    Even if I'm Shane doubt I transfer. I'd rather get the UT diploma than one from a 2nd rate university. He's not going to play in the pros, so better figure out what you want to do the rest of your life outside of football and get the degree from a top tier university. In the meantime, he's going to see some playing time next year. The way Sam plays, he will get hurt again.
     
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  14. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    We've allowed the professionalization of college football to go too far. We aren't recruiting 'students' that play football anymore. We are recruiting football players that pretend to be students. I'm not a fan, I think we should dial back the professionalism and raise the bar for academics. But I'm not naïve and that is unlikely to happen because there's so much money in it now.

    If I were sitting 2nd chair and truly believed I had the stuff, but the coach made a different call, I wouldn't defer to the coach and ride the pine and forego my college career just to be loyal.

    Look at most college QB situations. the difference between the 1 versus the 2 is not night and day. It's the matter of a few completed passes at the right time. Maybe it wasn't even the QB, maybe those incompletions were on the WR routes/drops. Why would I be willing to give up on my dream of NFL just because the coach sees things different?
     
  15. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    And I loathe the current interpretation of the targeting and horse collar rules. The targeting is almost always the result of the ball carrier lowering their head right before the impact. why should the defender be blamed for that? And I really hate the horse collar rule. That is such a non event, I don't know why that s even a penalty.
     
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  16. ViperHorn

    ViperHorn 5,000+ Posts

    If the DB is using the correct technique (head up) there still would not be targeting on the defense.
     
  17. easy

    easy 2,500+ Posts

    I think we all knew something like this was coming even the players, when we signed 2 quarterbacks in the previous cycle. With an incumbent starter going to be either a true sophomore (Sam)or junior (Shane). Only one guy can play and we have 4 on the roster with a 5th on the way now. It was just a matter of when and who. I think Shane would have been the top transfer candidate and I personally believe that’s what Rising is waiting for before he makes a final decision. Ultimately I think we lose Shane or Cameron not both but stranger things have happened.

    I hate the targeting call and that’s all I have to say about that.
     
  18. dukesteer

    dukesteer 2,500+ Posts

    That’s a fair observation, but I don’t believe it applies here. Worst case going into the fall, Rising has an opportunity to be # 2 if he wins it in the Spring. And # 2 will almost certainly play again this year.

    Win the backup job and the world would open up for him if he’s as good as he thinks he is.
     
  19. moondog_LFZ

    moondog_LFZ 1,000+ Posts

    Because there have been some major injuries due to that form of tackling.

    "The horse-collar tackle rose to infamy during the 2004 NFL season, in which it was implicated in six major injuries, four of which were caused by Williams, including two in one game. The injuries that season included broken legs for Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver Terrell Owens, Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb, Carolina Panthers wide receiver Steve Smith Sr., Baltimore Ravens running back Musa Smith, and Tennessee Titans wide out Tyrone Calico. "

    It was Roy Williams of OU fame that brought it to everyones attention. He used it often.

    Horse-collar tackle - Wikipedia
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  20. Horn87

    Horn87 1,000+ Posts

    This qb situation (too many cooks) is a problem that Mack would've loved to have had post-Colt, and may have prolonged his coaching career here...
     
  21. Vol Horn 4 Life

    Vol Horn 4 Life 5,000+ Posts

    That's a sticky situation. TH already stated that Shane is the best backup qb he has ever seen. I'm going to guess Shane gets some extra attention because he took that backup position and stayed so positive/quiet about it. If there was any thought on the team that anyone but Shane could be the backup there would be different names in the portal right now or at least one.
     
  22. I_Dont_Exist

    I_Dont_Exist 1,000+ Posts

    Personally I think Rising is gone but let's presume he stays. He becomes #2 and Johnson redshirts. Come 2020 Johnson proves to be as good as advertised and Cam is looking at being 3rd string. Then he transfers and only has 2 years left. He shouldn't stick around so fans can have a nice insurance policy. In good conscience I'd have to advise him to leave now.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  23. dukesteer

    dukesteer 2,500+ Posts

    To me, with Rising, this is all about confidence. If he’s as good as he thinks, there’s no way that TH puts SB ahead of him, regardless of how much TH thinks of Shane.

    And, if Rising is as good as he thinks he is, Johnson won’t beat him out.

    Rising’s possible decision to transfer is based to some extent on his lack of confidence versus the competition.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. SabreHorn

    SabreHorn 5,000+ Posts

    First thought I had was he transfers to USC, starts, graduates, and spends his final year winning the Hype$man at OU. Of course, that's when I thought USC would have a real coach, and/or real OC, & real AD.
     
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  25. ProdigalHorn

    ProdigalHorn 10,000+ Posts

    And I see a judgmental issue.

    Think about it this way: You accept a scholarship to U of Texas as a journalism major because you want to become a professional reporter. (This is an anaology and I get that it's not a perfect one, but bear with me.) You've talked to the staff at the Texan and they say "yeah you're going to get a chance to join our staff, and if you do well, you'll probably get hired by a newspaper out of college."

    But when you get there, you and about 20 other freshmen apply, and the response is "well we have a really good staff of sophomores and just don't have any more spots. It's likely we probably won't have any more for the next three years, but if you hang around, we can probably hire you for your senior year."

    You're told by every newspaper you talk to that they need someone with at least two years' experience on a university newspaper, and the general opinion is "if you weren't good enough to write for a school paper, why would we hire you?"

    So your options are to keep working at it and hope that someone leaves/dies/slacks off/doesn't improve as quickly as you do, knowing that an entrenched staffer is always going to get the benefit of the doubt. Or you can transfer to a college where they're willing and able to put you to work. It's your career at stake, it has nothing to do with character or loyalty or faith in self. You're making an investment in a school so that it will allow you to pursue your personal career goals. Anyone who says that's not why they went to college is a liar. Period.

    Yes, I'd love it if he stayed for three more years and was satisfied with only a year or two as a starter (which is not guaranteed.) But to do that, he's putting his faith in the hands of a coach who has no vested interest in helping him get to the NFL as a goal in itself. His interest is winning games and minimizing risk. Which means you're not beating out an entrenched starter unless he's seriously injured, or you are so far ahead of him that his starting is actually costing that coach wins. That just doesn't happen much - even Vince didn't start until it became clear that him not starting was a detriment to the team's performance.

    Being a backup in college does not prepare you for the NFL. That's just the hard truth of it. If he wants to play at the next level and he feels like he needs to move on to do that, then I respect that decision.

    Did you read Hornfans at all in January? How many people on this board were talking about Sam as a stop-gap? Half this board was taking the attitude that we had to wait Sam out until one of the freshman could take the job or until RJ showed up on campus. Does anyone really believe Rising didn't think he'd win that job within a year? Do you think things have changed now? And none of that change seems to have anything to do with Rising not being as good as advertised.

    And btw, if you honestly believe that "if he's the best player, then he'll start," then I'm betting you'll find plenty of players who would argue that didn't work out so well for them.

    In fact, that has been the de facto talking point of a lot of people on here for the past umpteen years. "So and so is CLEARLY better. Why isn't he starting??? Shane's our best option to win this year, but Herman won't start him because he has a man crush on Sam's alpha male persona..." "(Insert running back) shouldn't be getting any carries, he's a detriment to the team, so why does the coach keep playing him? He's clearly playing favorites because he's a junior/senior."
     
  26. BrntOrngStmpeDe

    BrntOrngStmpeDe 1,000+ Posts

    I think programs are going to have get much more adept at working in the backups at all positions. They're going to have work in 2nd's when the game is still in play even though it may be scary as hell to do it. You're going to have to give the 2nd's some reps in something other than mop up duty to keep them around. Otherwise, the promise of 'next year' may not be enough to keep a quality #2 around.
     
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  27. X Misn Tx

    X Misn Tx 1,000+ Posts

    I don't actually think they should pay back, but holy moly with the rhetoric (generally. Not you)

    Here's the setup for students ..
    Teams don't want them transferring in - conference. NCAA wants them to sit out a year wherever they go. Not a big deal.

    Here's the setup for coaches...
    Coaches have contracts At the end of the contract, they aren't employed.
    During the contract, two things are normally allowed.. A buyout that can be millions of dollars. And the ability to be promoted.

    How about people honor their contractual commitments?

    When players and coaches throw tantrums to get out of their contractual commitments I criticize them. When teams try to get out of their contractual commitments with players and coaches I criticize the teams.

    I get that players commit to coaches, but that isn't the contractual obligation. It's to the school.

    And transferring from one 4-year university to another takes a lot of paper work for any student by both schools. Application, acceptance transcripts, acceptance into a major, deciding which classes will count into the new college major. I'm ok creating barriers to transfer.
     
  28. Austin_Bill

    Austin_Bill 500+ Posts

    Rising picked Texas at a time when no one was sure what was going to happen with the starting QB. That position is now secure for the next 2 seasons with Sam, and now that Shane has said he wants to stay, the idea is He isn't going to get his shot until his redshirt junior year. Honestly makes sense for him to look at other schools.

    If Shane is going to transfer shouldn't he actually put his name in the transfer portal? I know the speculation is out there, but he has to make the move to actually do it.

    Texas had 3 backup QBs, I'm pretty sure they lose one, but not all 3.

    The reports I read are just the opposite, He is every bit the QB Sam is, and doesn't want to wait his turn, he wants to start now.
     
  29. nashhorn

    nashhorn 2,500+ Posts

    Does anyone really believe Sam, considering his playing style, will last an entire season injury free? The back up will play and we all know, like it or not, Shane is very injury prone so I'm of the opinion another QB will get playing time either by necessity ( injury) or smart thinking coaching. Next year will give us some opportunities to play backups (imo)
    and who knows, some of them may prove worthy to move up the depth chart.
     
  30. dukesteer

    dukesteer 2,500+ Posts

    I don’t agree with this. In fact, nothing about the QB position is certain. Yes, Sam enters 2019 as the undisputed starting QB but there is no guarantee that he keeps that position for the entire year. Yes, of course he will if he plays like he did after Tulsa — and if he stays healthy— but again, there are no sure things in football.

    If Rising transfers to Utah (for example) can they “guarantee him” the starting job in 2020? Absolutely not. They can promise all they want but reality is what it is. What if another QB on the roster emerges as the best QB, or what if Rising disappoints prior to the beginning of the 2020 season, or at the beginning of that year on the field? The Utah HC will go with the player that give the team the best chance to win.

    If the argument is that Rising “has a better chance” at the starting job at Utah in 2020 than he has at Texas, I would only say “perhaps.” The only difference I see is that, right now, Rising may appear to have a clearer path to starting job (insert the school name here) in 2020 than he does at Texas but again, there are many variables.

    Like I said, if he’s as good as he thinks he is then he will have to prove it, either here or somewhere else. The only difference is that “maybe” — here — he will not be able to capture the starting job until 2021. “Maybe.”
     

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