What if it was not the Russians?

Discussion in 'West Mall' started by Horn6721, Dec 13, 2016.

  1. Horn6721

    Horn6721 10,000+ Posts

    from zero hedge
    The former intelligence analyst, British Ambassador to Uzbekistan, and chancellor of the University of Dundee, Craig Murray, wrote yesterday:

    As Julian Assange has made crystal clear, the leaks did not come from the Russians. As I have explained countless times, they are not hacks, they are insider leaks – there is a major difference between the two.


    I know who leaked them. I’ve met the person who leaked them, and they are certainly not Russian and it’s an insider. It’s a leak, not a hack; the two are different things.

    In other words, Murray – a close friend of Julian Assange – says he knows for a fact that there were no hacks at all … instead, an American insider leaked the information to Wikileaks.

    Today, Murray writes:

    If you set up the super surveillance state, hoovering up all the internet traffic of pretty well everybody, that is not just going to affect the ordinary people whom the elite despise. There is also going to be an awful lot of traffic intercepted from sleazy members of the elite connected to even the most senior politicians, revealing all their corruption and idiosyncracies. From people like John Podesta, to take an entirely random example. And once the super surveillance state has intercepted and stored all that highly incriminating material, you never know if some decent human being, some genuine patriot, from within the security services is going to feel compelled to turn whistleblower.

    Than they might turn for help to, to take another entirely random example, Julian Assange.

    This confirms what the NSA executive who created the agency’s mass surveillance program for digital information, who served as the senior technical director within the agency, who managed six thousand NSA employees, the 36-year NSA veteran widely regarded as a “legend” within the agency and the NSA’s best-ever analyst and code-breaker, who mapped out the Soviet command-and-control structure before anyone else knew how, and so predicted Soviet invasions before they happened (“in the 1970s, he decrypted the Soviet Union’s command system, which provided the US and its allies with real-time surveillance of all Soviet troop movements and Russian atomic weapons”) – previously said: the leaker was from U.S. intelligence services. And see this.

    And Murray confirmed to Washington's Blog by email that Binney "was on the mark." And see this.

    In other words, Russia did not hack the Democratic party emails. Instead, an American intelligence whistleblower leaked them.

    It wouldn't be the first time.

    Update: David Swanson interviewed Murray today, and obtained additional information. Specifically, Murray told Swanson that: (1) there were two American leakers ... one for the emails of the Democratic National Committee and one for the emails of top Clinton aide John Podesta; (2) Murray met one of those leakers; and (3) both leakers are American insiders with the NSA and/or the DNC, with no known connections to Russia.

    And see this.

    Postscript: As we've pointed out for years, the NSA is collecting all digital communications, including emails, in America.

    The NSA then shares this information with numerous other agencies, including the FBI, DEA, etc.

    We've noted that the NSA’s big data collection itself creates an easy mark for hackers. Remember, the Pentagon itself sees the collection of “big data” as a “national security threat” … but the NSA is the biggest data collector on the planet, and thus provides a tempting mother lode of information for foreign hackers."
    more at http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-...-democratic-email-leaker-confirms-he-was-amer

    Here is a source willing to be named. Add this to the FBI reporting they are not sure the breach was done by Russians.
    Of course we still should investigate whether Russia or any other country has found ways into our systems But what if it was not the Russians who leaked the docs after all?
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  2. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    Let's see what fake news has to say.

  3. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

  4. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

    I haven't been following this Russian stuff closely because, honestly, from what I have gleaned from stories it sounds like democrats crying like sore losers.

    Did Russia change votes? Did Russia sabotage voting machines? What is the complaint? Are democrats whining because Putin likes Trump better than Clinton? What's the problem, legally, with that?

    If the standard is that a government disseminates information whether factual, false, or propaganda to support a preferred candidate in a foreign election, then The United States has been dead to rights on that also.
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  5. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Partisanship over patriotism. :facepalm:
  6. Mr. Deez

    Mr. Deez Beer Prophet

    I'm sure there is plenty of "sore loserism" in the equation. However, I do think the matter should be thoroughly investigated. I don't want foreign agents intervening in US elections and that includes hacking into anybody's emails, even my political opponents' emails. I also don't want them encouraging, paying, or threatening people on the inside to leak private emails.

    This doesn't mean Trump has culpability. He may have had nothing to do with it, but it should be looked into.
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  7. iatrogenic

    iatrogenic 2,500+ Posts

    We can all agree with looking into the hacking. It won't be long before the Russians hack Republican emails and the Rs will be complaining while the Democrats concentrate on the substance of those emails instead of the hacking problem.

    We do have greater priorities, however. For instance, the unusual increase in White Supremacist activities since Trump's election is a cause for concern. I can't sleep due to the increase in light caused by the crosses being burned in various African American's yards in my neighborhood, and the wailing of Jews being herded into cattle cars makes me cringe.

    This idea of following immigration laws makes many uncomfortable also. Since when does following laws make sense to anyone? Which reminds me; does anyone know where I can buy a lawnmower at a reasonable price? How about a flak jacket to ward off shrapnel from the moderate Muslim that moved into the hood without anyone's knowledge?

    The rampant increase in the number of Trump's Cabinet selections grabbing women's genitals, while simultaneously twisting their mustaches and laughing about the income disparity between men and women, has been despicable. Do these guys think they are Muslims in Germany or what?

    I bet it won't be too long before Trump and his supporters begin denying the election results and start lobbying for members of the Electoral College to change their votes.

    Let's get back to the good ole days of dividing our nation with identity politics, supporting chicks- with-di-ks using women's restrooms, pay-for-play in the State Department, creating safe spaces for college kids that are sadly unaware of the ***-kicking they are going to take from society when they graduate, banning speakers we disagree with from appearing at universities, forcing companies to bake cakes despite their religious beliefs, outlawing the use of offensive words that no one had any idea were offensive, trigger warnings designed to limit free speech, attacking the police force because they are doing their jobs, coddling "justice-involved" youth instead of treating them according to their actions, disarming the law abiding populace, diversity initiatives for which no empirical evidence exists to justify them, discrimination based on race when it comes to college admissions and public contracting, multi-culturalism that has worked so well in Germany and France, and the never ending drive toward the successful model of socialism that has made American's so envious of places like Venezuela.

    My goodness, what have we done by electing this monster known as Trump?
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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  8. Clean

    Clean 5,000+ Posts

    As the OP's post states, they didn't hack. They leaked. They didn't change any votes. They just revealed what an elitist group the Democrats really were and how badly they stacked the deck against Bernie.

    The Dems are just being whiny babies. They can't accept the election results, so they're doing what Hillary Clinton claimed Donald Trump was doing when he said he'd let Chris Wallace know if he was going to accept the election results; undermining our Democracy.

    Some Dem from Virginia is now saying the Electoral College should delay Monday's vote until they get a security briefing. 68 Dems have signed Nancy Pelosi's daughter's petition to not cast electoral votes until a briefing is given. It's just stupid.

    Even if the Electoral College does give Trump 270 on Monday, and I'm sure it will, on Jan. 6, the House and Senate have to certify the EC vote. It just takes one senator or congressman protesting to open the process up so that everybody gets 5 minutes to speak on the floor of the House or Senate. You can only imagine the bs they'll drag up then.

    The Dems are not going out with dignity. That's for sure.
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  9. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

    Where are democrats' patriotism when this happens all the time all over the world - many times with the United States behind it?

    Do you think Obama and the intelligence community were just observers during the Arab Spring?


    Why is this also still an issue? I remember my Hillary friend back in August not complaining about all the crap in the DNC's and Hillary's email, but that Russia was the suspected hacker/leaker. This was already well known before the election.

    The only votes being stolen in this election are Trump's in the electoral college. He predicted that very scenario during the campaign, and democrats are playing right into, or more accurately fueling, the public's fear.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  10. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    Moon of Alabama wrote a speculative analytical piece yesterday (The elite coup of 2016). Basically, there are three possibilities to thwart Trump's inauguration:

    1. Changing votes within the electoral college on December 19th. Probably close to zero chance of this happening.

    2. Bringing an objection to the vote signed by at least one House member and one Senate member on the January 6th joint meeting of Congress. Theoretically, this would open up a debate and if enough support swung against Trump we have a Constitutional crises and legal issues that then go to the Supreme Court

    3. Obama's call for an intelligence review (He gives a speech later today). The idea being that until there is resolution, the vice-President elect would take office on January 20th until a "qualified" person (Clinton? Pence? Trump?) can take office.
  11. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

    Deez, that's a very partisan answer. No Americans, republicans and democrats, want that. But that is the 21st Century world we live in. The United States does this to other countries. The United States hacks into emails of people in other countries and conducts clandestine propaganda intelligence operations to influence politics and voting in other people's countries. Do you not think our intelligence officers threaten, pay, and encourage foreigners to give up private information? Other countries, enemies AND allies, have been influencing US politics in the same vein at least as far back as WWII if not earlier. The 2016 election is not unique or special - that is of course, you're on the losing side.

    Democrats were crying wolf back in the summer that Russians were behind these e-mail leaks...not propaganda mind you, but leaks of real e-mails. And the mainstream media, to no surprise, was covering this Russia story more than the e-mails themselves. People knew about this already. This had no affect on the outcome of the election. And since it had no affect on the outcome on the election, to say "it should be looked into," is a very designing way to say "Trump is not legitimate" and "electors should change their votes." It is sore loserdom.

    Real election fraud is dead people voting, illegal aliens voting - which many shameless democrats actually want, machines changing votes, throwing out legitimate votes, voter intimidation, and buying votes (maybe including in-kind legal services for electoral votes).
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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  12. Crockett

    Crockett 5,000+ Posts

    Wikileaks wasn't the only source of leaked or hacked Democratic Party emails, so maybe some were leaked and some were hacked. Is Assange a truthful person? Did he have something to gain from Trump's election? I haven't decided, but I'm curious.

    Unless someone proves conclusively that Russians hacked voting machines and changed votes, I don't think anyone should question the validity of the 2016 general elections. No matter the accuracy or source of the information that influenced voter decision, there is something pretty much sacred in what a registered voter puts on a ballot.
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  13. nashhorn

    nashhorn 5,000+ Posts

    Nice rant Mr genic.
  14. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

  15. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    My view on this issue is that focusing on it diverts attention away from much more important issues. For example, Debbie Wasserman-Shultz, Donna Brazile, Robbie Mook, John Podesta, Hillary Clinton and other individuals conspired to steal a US election. The media hysteria about the leak itself completely overshadows this issue and let's it fade into the shadows of time. There may have been a crime here. And even if not quite to the level of a federal crime, the story should be one of the bigger US election-manipulation tales of all time. But its not.

    But that's not all, the Russian story has had a similar effect on the Clinton Foundation investigations. Where a federal crime was likely involved. I hate that all of this has been overshadowed. Which is probably what the real underlying conspiracy is.

    Perhaps the single worst thing about this purported Russian angle is that it keeps the focus off the fact that the emails were real. They were a rare glimpse into the actual mechanisms of a giant US political party, and the persons involved. This was watershed stuff. And what was revealed was only a tiny part of their overall network. There was a lot of bad stuff in those communications -- potential crimes, lies, perjury, racism and a virtual mountain of hypocrisy.

    For probably the first time in American history, the people got to see the truth about the people high in their government concurrently as an election was unfolding. Usually, we have to wait years or sometimes decades for this type of revelation. If we ever get it at all. So I am as grateful for the exposure. I dont care near as much as most of you appear to care about the source of the leak. To me, the story is the story. Here, the story is truth about how Dems operate behind closed doors. I am so old I remember when Americans agreed with the idea that sunshine/full disclosure is a good thing. But no one is discussing any of this now.
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  16. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    What is being played out right now is a competition for power. The players are more than just the Democrats and Republicans. The competition is also between the geopolitical ideologues currently in power and a different group vying to take their place. The CIA obviously belongs to the first group. The FBI rank and file do not; not sure what the FBI leadership thinks.

    In addition, the foreign policy doctrine of intervention and regime change has been lucrative for the defense industry, the budgets of the CIA and pentagon. But the strategy has not stemmed the tide of radical Islam, has caused massive refugee flows, and destablized the Middle East. The power structure in place wants to keep this policy going. There are competing factions which back Trump that wish to change policy.

    The election provided an avenue for a different oligarchy to replace the old oligarchy. But they aren't going to relingquish power without a fight. Not that the new group will give a rat's *** about the general public anymore than the current players. But what else can we do but vote for change and hope it works out a little better.
  17. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Summary: Team over country.

    Look, I think it was very insightful to demonstrate what we've known for some time, the cozyiness between media and politicians was too close. That's not a Democrat or a Republican thing but rather what happens when government and media workers traverse back and forth across the wall seemlessly. Can we all agree that we'd see the same thing with lobbyists and government if we were given and equal lens to view it though. Media has become partisan which is a problem.

    That doesn't absolve what literally should be considered an act of war. An attempt to manipulate the direction of our government by a foreign power, one previously hostile to our interests. The downplay of that simply because they favored your "team" is appalling. Suddenly, the "other" side is so scary that one side would welcome the help from arch enemies simply to ensure they win. I'll say it, that "team" is unfit to lead our country.

    Now, I don't think any of this will change the election and don't believe there is any realistic chance of that happening. Should someone be able to pull off something that would change the result would be even more traumatic for our democracy than one side openly embracing espionage.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  18. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Corrupting an election is about the country
  19. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    That is a bridge too far for me. I saw both Trump and Brexit as throwing all the oligarchies out. Not preferring one over the other.

    Sure there are big power plays at work at high levels to fill the voids created, but this is not what either vote was about
  20. djimaplon

    djimaplon 250+ Posts

    For that to happen the incoming oligarchs (look at the incoming Cabinet ...CEO, CEO, Wall Street Banker, Wall Street Banker, General, General) will have to make systemic changes that prevent future oligarchic rule.
  21. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Meanwhile, the Trump transition team is reportedly searching for loopholes around nepotism rules, the emoluments clause, the time limit between military and civilian posts among others. If the rules are changing they are doing so to entrench the new oligarchy.
  22. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

    Why in this different in 2016 that you would call for a Constitutional crisis?

    And why whine about this, when other subversive factors had much more influence over the election?
  23. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    How convenient of you only to worry about corruption that helps your side and disregard all other evidence. Team over country.
  24. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    Exactly. We aren't going to see changes that make government more responsive or accountable to the general public. What we are likely to get are major policy changes, but also expansion of government power. Now, the expansion of government power was going to happen no matter who took office.
  25. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    You have evidence of a foreign power trying to steer a US election previously? If so, the intelligence agencies would like to speak with you.
  26. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

    Yeah it's called England doing every subversive slimy media lie you can imagine to get the US into World War II.



    And again Husker, we - The United States of America, DO THE SAME **** ALL OVER THE WORLD. At least in this election, everyone already assumed way back in the summer, per the DNC's media speaking points, that Russia was behind the leaks and factored that into their vote.
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016
  27. Musburger1

    Musburger1 2,500+ Posts

    There is no "evidence," that has been presented, only accusations.

    What's different about this election is that the status quo faces a shake up because the general public decided they've had enough with the establishment as evidenced by the mass support for Sanders and Trump. The fact that Trump managed to make it all the way has alerted the establishment that there will be a rearranging of the deck. That can't stand.

    The blatant criminal activity that fueled the Clinton machine is of minor concern to the status quo, thus it isn't pursued seriously. Hell, much of the government apparatus is knee deep in this sh--. But a realignment of foreign policy and trade policy is major concern and the battle is raging.
  28. Seattle Husker

    Seattle Husker 10,000+ Posts

    Where in that article does it say that Britain tried to influence a US election? It reads as a counter-espionage effort against Germany.

    With that logic, you wouldn't be concerned if Iran hacked our nuclear power grid. We should simply accept it and not respond, right?
  29. Joe Fan

    Joe Fan 10,000+ Posts

    Yeah. I will leave that to you to figure out.
  30. texas_ex2000

    texas_ex2000 2,500+ Posts

    Husker, I can't take anything you write seriously anymore. You're a troll now. Didn't you have a security clearance? You don't know the difference between propaganda and counter-espionage operations?

    This was set up in 1940, during the middle of the 1940 election. You have never heard of BSC? Read that Guardian article I linked. Do a little research before you throw a question like that out.

    False equivalency on so many levels:

    1) A successful hack into our nuclear power grid doesn't happen regularly, like the way countries attempt through propaganda to influence the internal politics of other countries. Foreign propaganda is a part of life.
    2) Kinetic operations, such as hacking into a power grid, is not the same as leaking e-mails.
    3) A power grid infected with a virus is a slave to its programing. American voters - especially when they know a foreign actor is behind a leak, can independently evaluate the credibility of that information.
    4) Hacking of a nuclear grid doesn't lead to liberal losers sending us down a Constitutional crisis.
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    Last edited: Dec 16, 2016

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